WW2 RHODESIAN VOLUNTEER IN THE ROYAL NAVY UNIFORM

[actionoke]

I believe this to be a Rhodesian Volunteer in the Royal Navy during WW2 uniform.There was 373 Rhodesians that where in the RN .My questin is does this look correct for that period?

[Guzzman]

Hi actionoke

It's hard to tell the date of the uniform just from the pictures. So, here are a few clues to helping you date it.

Firstly the blue serge jumper (Jumper, Serge):-

Jumper, Serge. 1932-41. Button cuffs. Single inner pocket, open top. 12 - 15in V front.

Jumper, Serge. 1941-42. Button cuffs. Twin inner pocket. 12 - 15in V front.

Jumper, Serge. 1942-43. Button cuffs. Twin inner pocket, one open, one button top. 12 - 15in V front. Single thickness collar with bound edge.

Jumper, Serge. 1943-45. No cuffs. Twin inner pocket, both button top. 12 - 15in V front. Single thickness collar with reinforced bound edge.

Jumper, Serge. 1945. Button cuffs. Twin inner pocket, both button top. 12 - 15in V front. Single thickness collar with reinforced bound edge.

Next the blue collar (Collar, Blue Jean) :-

The edge of the blue collar has three white stripes. Prior to October 1941 the three rows of white edging were individually stitched on by hand. In October 1941 a new composite tape was introduced which consisted of three white bars alternating with two blue bars. The composite pattern was normally machine stitched to the collar edge.

I'm sure I've got some information about national insignia somewhere. I'll have a look to see if I can find it,

Pete

[Guzzman]

Found something which may (or may not!) help you.

Unlike the Army and RAF, personnel from the colonies serving with the Royal Navy were forbidden to wear titles bearing the name of their colony of origin.

So, even if the uniform is of the right date there is a possibility that the 'RHODESIA' title may have been added subsequently.

Pete

[actionoke]

Thanks for info but I got the lot direct from the family and it was lying in a trunk for a very long time.I also got the summer uniform which also has the Rhodesian titles on the shoulder...so someone must have made the titles for them for a reason....

[Guzzman]

Hope the info re dating the uniform helps a bit to at least confirm it's wartime issue.

Have checked again but 'colony of origin' badges were not allowed for personnel serving with the Royal Navy. The only exception was for personnel from the Dominion navies such as the RCN or the RAN.

Maybe he wore the 'Rhodesia' flashes unofficially? Depends where he served and what he could get away with! Matelots always try to push the regulations to their limit and the command structure was prepared to turn a bit of a 'blind eye' during the war. Quite a few unofficial badges were tolerated in wartime but once it was over the regulations were rigidly enforced.

Whatever the explanation it's a very nice find and many thanks for showing it. Keep us informed of developments.

Pete

[Guzzman]

Just been having another look at the flash on the white tropical uniform. Definately looks like a do-it-yourself job and not official issue. Possibly stitched by the rating himself. His housewife (official sewing kit issued to every rating) would contain all he needed to make a flash like that.

Pete

[Postwarden]

The attached may be of interest. It comes from a 1944 catalogue issued by J&J Edwards, Naval Outfitters of Lowestoft.

It lists gold wire 'Patches' - presumably shoulder titles - for some unusual places suggesting that whilst banned such items were available and presumably intended to be worn.

Jon

[Guzzman]

Hi Jon

Interesting ad! Virtually all of these were allowed under the regulations of the time. Ratings in the RNR and RNVR were supposed to wear identifying flashes but often didn't bother! Occupied countries such as France and Belgium all wore identifying national flashes - often on Royal Navy uniforms. Sometimes these were worn with their own insignia but not always. Personnel from Dominion navies such as Australia were entitled to wear identifying flashes. Newfoundland is an interesting case. At that time Newfoundland wasn't part of Canada. I think it had been a Dominion in its own right but had basically gone bust in the 1930s and was being administered by Britain. I don't think they had a navy of their own so I'm unsure if they were technically allowed to wear a flash or not! The odd one out is Northern Ireland! As part of the UK I've no idea who would have worn this one!

Pete

[Postwarden]

Glad it was of interest.

The Northern Ireland title was probably a result of the fact that conscription did not apply in Northern Ireland so anyone from there was a volunteer and presumably keen to advertise the fact. There are similar titles for the Army and RAF.

Jon

[Guzzman]

That's what I love about this hobby - you learn something new everyday!

Many thanks.

Pete

[actionoke]

Looking closer ..found maker label..can you date it from this?

[Guzzman]

Hi

Bernards were, until fairly recently, one of the largest retailers of naval uniforms in the country. They used to have shops anywhere the Navy was based and their label remained virtually unchanged for years so I'm afraid it doesn't really help.

It is possible that he bought this uniform from a branch of Bernards 'for best' as opposed to using one he was issued with. Many ratings did this and then personalised them. They then wore them for special occasions like going on leave. Such things helped impress the girls!

You are still probably better off trying to date it by the combination of pockets/cuffs from the list I posted earlier.

Personally I don't doubt at all that it is what you say it is but the flashes have certainly been added unofficially. The blue-on-white 'RHODESIA' flash is certainly home made but the white-on-black/navy blue looks more professional. Perhaps it was one that was originally made for the army or airforce but he decided to appropriate it for his naval uniform? They should not have been worn but who can blame him for adding them?

I've looked again at the trousers and from what I can see they look of the right date. The 'H.M.S.' tally was certainly used during the war and the blue collar appears to be of the post-October 1941 pattern.

Then of course you have the family history. if you got it from a family who say that it was worn by a member of their family who served in the RN during the war there seems little reason to doubt them. Do you have any details such as full name or service number?

Naval regulations required that all clothing was marked with the owner's name. A name type was issued to ratings to mark their kit. This consisted of a block of 3/8in reversed wooden letters that were then coated in paint and stamped on a garment. Blue clothing was marked in white paint and white clothing in black paint or black ink. Jumpers (the blue top) were marked on the back , close up to the collar seam. Trousers were marked on the inside of the waistband at the back. Do you have any of these marks and do they tally with the name you expect?

I don't suppose it's possible to check any details of service in Zimbabwe but since he served in the RN you should be able to confirm details with the Public Record Office in the UK.

Sorry I can't be of more help!

Pete

[actionoke]

Thank you ..youve been more then helpfull..I would say FANTASTIC..

[Guzzman]

My pleasure! Glad to help.

I referred to the Public Record Office earlier ... it's now called the National Archives. We've gone all modern and trendy here!

Pete

[Milmed]

Just found some information in 'Sailor Woman - Sea Woman' The history of the SWANS that may shed some light on the RHODESIA navy title. See attached snapshot