British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Royal Navy and Royal Marines

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 27-10-18, 07:33 AM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 33
Default Badge Identification please

Hi to all,
This badge shows a horizontal gun but does not have any star above or a letter below. The badge has not been altered.
Is this badge an Admiralty pattern 111A for a RN Patrol Service Gun Layer?.

Another badge recently received. A red V, once again the badge is uncut and has not had letters removed.
Was this badge used to indicate a rating who voluntarily enlisted?
Thanks
Barry
Attached Images
File Type: jpg P1210017.jpg (44.2 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg P1210018.jpg (112.9 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg P1210015.jpg (50.2 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg P1210016.jpg (108.7 KB, 13 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 29-10-18, 01:01 PM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 562
Default Badge Identification Please

Hi Barry

A horizontal gun without addition was used as the badge for a Seaman Gunner, 2nd Class (1890 - 1903) and the badge for an Acting Seaman Gunner (1890 - 1903). Your example has a hessian backing which suggests that it dates from the early part of the 20th century - up to the Second World War. It is possible that it continued being produced in this form between 1903 and the 1940s and that letters and stars were stitched above or below it as required.

My records state that the only horizontal gun worn by members of the Royal Naval Reserve Patrol Service was worn by Seamen Gunners between 1941 - 1948. This was worn with a Star above and a P below.

A Gunlayer in the Patrol Service wore Crossed Guns, with a Star above and a P below (1941-48).

Between 1956 and 1960 a Patrol Service Gunlayer 3rd Class wore Crossed Guns with the appropriate letter below while a Gunlayer 2nd Class wore Crossed Guns with a Star and appropriate letter below.

Now to turn to your second badge - the letter 'V'. In 1923 ratings in the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve (RNVR) were ordered to wear a 3/4-inch (19.1mm) 'V' on each cuff. In 1924 this was replaced by the letters 'RNVR'. Your badge looks rather new and the colours rather bright. This may simply be due to the photograph or it may be a reproduction. I can't really tell from the image.

Pete
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 29-10-18, 08:08 PM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 33
Default

Hi Peter,
Thanks for your reply.
Both badges have come from a long established general collection and are not reproductions. The V badge is un-issued and still has the bright red colour, which may account for your comments on reproduction.
The V is 1/2 inch in height (less than the regulation 3/4 inch, which you mention). I have an gold RNVR badge (pattern 269) which is just over 1/2 inch in height and a red RNVR badge (pattern 269A) on the cuff of a jacket which is the same 1/2 inch in height.
I am wondering if these badges were made in New Zealand.

I do wonder if the early horizontal gun badge was still on issue during WW2.
In NZ we had a Naval Auxiliary Patrol Service. The stores list for 1944 lists spare letters- X113A letter P and X113B letter P which would have been sewn below a single gun. It is interesting to note that only woven badges were issued.

Thanks again
Barry

Last edited by nbroadarrowz; 29-10-18 at 11:54 PM. Reason: More information
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 30-10-18, 10:12 AM
Guzzman's Avatar
Guzzman Guzzman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Nottingham
Posts: 562
Default Badge Identification Please

Hi Barry

Very interesting!

My first thought when I read your reply was that perhaps the differences in size, etc, could be accounted for by the fact the badges might be for the RNZN - but then I remembered that there was only the New Zealand Division of the RN (and no RNZN) until during the Second World War. As such I would have expected the badges to be exactly the same as RN issue. But I suppose there could be differences if they were locally made.

Sorry! I didn't mean to suggest that your badges WERE reproductions - only that the colours looked very bright! I have the same problem when I post images of old, faded red badges - they always come out looking bright red and brand new!

Hope my information was of some use!

Pete

Last edited by Guzzman; 30-10-18 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Spelling!
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 30-10-18, 10:32 AM
nbroadarrowz nbroadarrowz is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 33
Default

Peter,
Your information was very helpful.
I find that in NZ the older patterns tend to still be around whereas in England the older patterns were used up sooner due to the size of the Navies etc.
Do you know the Admiralty pattern numbers for the badges?
I suppose the V badge would be quite hard to get, only being around for a year?
Barry
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 04:38 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.