1916 Northants blank scroll?

[Sonofacqms]

I have just bought on ebay a badge that I have been after years, I saw one of these at a cousin's house back in the 1950's that had belonged to his Grandfather, it was in a box with lots of other Northants items.

The fate of this box is unknown, but I suspect an alert dustman may have had a great collection . . !

Here is the link: www.ebay.co.uk/itm/130671152112

When I cleaned this badge it was in brass although the vendor described it as white metal, does anyone have any thoughts on this badge?

I know the Northamptonshire Regt had a Victorian type of cap badge with the long key in G/m which of course has been discussed before on the forum and goes against all logical thinking.

Rob

[ANGLE IRON]

looks good from the picture, I have a bi metal one, not seen it in brass but it looks OK.

[KLR]

Rob, Well done. It's an 'all GM' 1916 issue, recorded in WO documents. It (and the others) were declared obsolete in 1919.
3,000 4/NHants were ordered in April 1916, which was probably the first order, I don't know if there were later orders.
J

[2747andy]

Rob, if it is genuine then "Well Done" as they are pretty scarce, but before you crack open the champers, any chance of some better images? If it is one of the badges Julian quotes, I would expect a longer slider and the scrolls to be seeded or show signs of seeding to the reverse if polished off the front! The top and bottom scrolls should also be bordered and not completely smooth... I do not have a 4th Northants all Gm (yet) but have shown a Bim version and a Wellingborough School to illustrate my point!

Andy

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by KLR

Rob, Well done. It's an 'all GM' 1916 issue, recorded in WO documents. It (and the others) were declared obsolete in 1919.
3,000 4/NHants were ordered in April 1916, which was probably the first order, I don't know if there were later orders.
J

Julian.

Are the records detailed enought to state whether the scrolls are blank or not? By this I mean blank rather than with the 4th Bn title and honour.

Alan

[Sonofacqms]

Many thanks for your thoughts chaps, very much appreciated and taken on board.

Julian, interesting that there were 4,00 ordered, a good point of Alans asking were they blank or had 4th Btn on the scroll.

Andy, at present this old trog does not have the means for a better pic, but to answer your questions, the slider was rather bent and just about touches the bottom scroll, the blank scrolls are unseeded, completely flat and without borders. The title scroll is bordered and seeded and the badge is very well struck with detail showing on the reverse, it is also difficult to bend.

I did have a glass of cider with dinner, the badge as I said previously is one that although not a "Holy Grail" is one that has almost been mystical for me, I did doubt of it's existence for a while as the last one I saw was over fifty years ago.

Rob

[2747andy]

Rob,
the non-bordered and un-seeded small scrolls are not a good sign! Being hard to bend and well struck does not counter this! The key feature which worries me is the area where the lower short scroll rests/meets the top edge of the "NORTHAMPTONSHIRE", this is often an area which appears to blob or blend on copies, whereas on genuine badges there is a clear define! I hope I am wrong but fear that you may have a battered old copy? Note also the sliders fitted to the rear of the castle, I would say that if you slider is fitted behind the GIB Scroll then that is not a good sign either!

Here are 3 (makers) variations of the regular pattern all Gm badge for comparison!

Andy

[Sonofacqms]

Andy, thanks for your time showing the variations on 1916 badges, yes there is a bit of a blob where the middle scroll touches the Northamptonshire scroll and the slider is fixed behind the top scroll, the thing that worries me most is that it is in the yellow brass which Pre Territorial Glengarry badges were made from and not Gilding metal as most 1916 issue badges are.

The fact that I have been looking for this badge for over fifty years and never encountered one, real or restrike/copy tells me that it is scarce. Why would someone make a copy that was not true to an original?

The Northamptonshire Regt have over their history had some strange items, so I will keep this on my Northants board until another appears.

Regards Rob

[2747andy]

Bob,
you are right, I would certainly keep hold of it, but get rid using a large Lump Hammer if you ever get a genuine replacement! From what I can see and what you have added IMO it's 100% wrong!

Good luck with the search, it's one I'm on too!

Best regards

Andy

[KLR]

The only detail on the April 1916 tender is that it is all GM and has a vertical shank (slider). However, since the bimetal blank scroll version was almost certainly in use since 1908 and probably specified in 1915 I guess this GM badge was indeed blank.
Proof however, comes from the document of September 1917 stating that all TF badges with blank scrolls were now allowed to add honours etc. This means, of course, that from thenceforward regular dies were used - either bm or all gm. Thus any specified 4th Bn badge noted in April 1916 must have had blank scrolls.
I don't have time to look at all the documentation in detail right now, but I hope to sort it all out for 1st WW badges Part 2.
Happy Easter !
J

[Sonofacqms]

Julian, many thanks for your input, once again your research proves invaluable, have a great Easter . . !

Rob

[Alan O]

Interesting thread. I am still unaware of why the 4th Bn titled badge with the SA honour fell into disuse in favour of a blank scrolled one.

[KLR]

Alan, I was unaware that there was a 4th Bn titled badge with the SA honour - which is indeed intriguing !! I think we have to wait for a Northants specialist to help us over that. I can think of a couple of things to look at though when I'm next at the IWM or NAM library.
HE 2 all

[Alan O]

It's either because the titled badge was worn with a different hat 1908-13 (No 1?) or because the decision was taken to drop the honours (possible but unlikely)and replace it with a blank scrolled one or possibly to introduce a blank badge suitable for the 4th bn but also other TF bns.

I did wonder if the blank scrolled badge had been misidentified as the 4th bn one but if it was made in all GM then clearly that is not the case.

Alan

[cpgriff]

Sticking with the theme I have never yet seen a 1st VB without a South Africa scroll either. In theory, as the SA honour wasn't authorized until 1905 then this should exist. Even seeing one with the SA honour is rare, but what was worn before 1905?