early officer's headgear - British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

KLR · #1 06-10-12, 08:48 AM

Here are two 1896 pattern King's Regiment officer's 'cap' badges. They are both made by Gaunt and stamped S - the right hand one is so named but the dies are identical.

The first has an upper loop and a lower 'blade' (if that's the right term)
The second has two NS loops.

I'm sure there was a thread about the first one but I can't find it (I think there was an RA badge with same fittings illustrated)
What was the consensus ?? - What kind of headgear was this fitting worn on ?

If it was - for example - a FSC ('side cap'), why was such a thing changed to two loops - simpler manufacturing process ?

What date was the officer's 'peaked cap' (not the 'station masters' cap) introduced ?? - Did that have a bearing on fittings ???

Lastly, I have another S&G King's badge of the same pattern (not Gaunt) which has three loops - N and EW ! Would this relate to yet another type of headgear (FSH ???).

I'd be grateful for any information or thoughts.
thanks, Julian

41st · #2 06-10-12, 05:12 PM

Julian,
I have the same fitting on a Welsh Regiment example and have also seen it on a lancer badge, sorry I cannot remember which unit, but it was hall marked for 1917.
Kevin

41st · #3 06-10-12, 05:23 PM

Julian,
Here is a link to it and the markings are the same i.e Gaunt and with the S mark.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...2&d=1204046366

Toby Purcell · #4 11-10-12, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KLR

Here are two 1896 pattern King's Regiment officer's 'cap' badges. They are both made by Gaunt and stamped S - the right hand one is so named but the dies are identical.

The first has an upper loop and a lower 'blade' (if that's the right term)
The second has two NS loops.

I'm sure there was a thread about the first one but I can't find it (I think there was an RA badge with same fittings illustrated)
What was the consensus ?? - What kind of headgear was this fitting worn on ?

If it was - for example - a FSC ('side cap'), why was such a thing changed to two loops - simpler manufacturing process ?

What date was the officer's 'peaked cap' (not the 'station masters' cap) introduced ?? - Did that have a bearing on fittings ???

Lastly, I have another S&G King's badge of the same pattern (not Gaunt) which has three loops - N and EW ! Would this relate to yet another type of headgear (FSH ???).

I'd be grateful for any information or thoughts.
thanks, Julian

Very interesting Julian, I had never seen a badge with an upper loop and lower blade before. I have no idea what head dress it might have been for.

The officers version of the peaked forage cap replaced the 'stationmasters cap, in 1902. A similar but inferior cap was issued to ORs from 1906.

I have only seen 3 looped insignia worn as collar badges.

John Mulcahy · #5 11-10-12, 07:48 PM

Note a related comment in Laurie Archer's notes page A16 made available by PB on post 1 of the thread below

http://britishbadgeforum.com/forums/...ad.php?t=27670

does not help elucidate the reason but wanted to make sure you saw it.

Silver Tourist · #6 11-10-12, 09:48 PM

Good evening Mr B.

I have numerous examples of this fitting in my collection. Off the top of my head I have examples in hallmarked silver to:

1) 11 Bn. Border Regt. (KK 1149, multiple examples)
2) Natal Carabiniers.
3) The Berkshire Regt. (KK 667)
4) The Welsh Regt. (Oh yes, KK 653, hallmarked 1899)
5) The SWB (KK 625)
6) The Yorkshire Regt. (KK 616)
7) The Queens. (KK 590)
8) RIR. (KK 614)
9) KOSB. The small Adjutant`s version.
10) Middlesex Regt. (KK 672)
11) DLI (KK 680 & KK 681)
12) OLI (KK 658)
13) Essex Regt. (KK 659 & KK 660)

And, several more British and Indian Army examples.

Not sure this helps you, but they`re not unusual.

Enjoy.

ST.

KLR · #7 12-10-12, 06:02 AM

Thank you all. Yes, I'm aware that there are numerous examples of these - which makes it all the more curious that we can't find an identification of function and date.
8th F kindly alerted me to me the Archer drawing.
So the peaked cap arrived in 1902, that's interesting as it was the same time as the introduction of the OSD. I knew about the 1906 ORs - sliders were shortened for it.
Happily, the King's had a different design for their collar badges so there is never any confusion there.
I think Stephen - Badjez - had a view on these things but I don't know if he's ready to give a new antipodean response !?

Old Smelly · #8 13-10-12, 07:26 PM

I have a RAMC s/g version with this fitting, I was told it was for the early peaked cap, the bottom 'tongue' pegs into the top of the band.
Lee

fougasse1940 · #9 13-10-12, 09:11 PM

...........

fougasse1940 · #10 13-10-12, 09:22 PM

If the bottom tongue is meant for the top of the band wouldn't the badge sit rather high on the cap?
For comparison a pic swiped from another thread: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=27682 where the badge is known to also have a lip and lug fitting, see second image borrowed from Robert Leigh's site.

Rgds,

Thomas

KLR · #11 14-10-12, 07:17 AM

Thank you both. Yes, it occured to me that the badge so fitted would be too high. I did wonder if the use of this 'tongue' was related to the introduction of the officer's peaked cap in 1902 but this seems to be negated by its appearance on an 1899 dated Welsh Regt badge in ST's collection
- which prompts me to ask ST if any of your others have a QVC ? -

The usual two loop fitting was just as effective on the peaked cap as it was on the FSC (side cap) which suggests that the 'tongue' fitting was in fact the earlier or, that it was created for a specific purpose / headgear. As has been clearly seen, the 'tongue' fitting appears to have been a large production which might support the idea that this was the original FSC fitting. KC versions might have been the last examples made ?

I have another version that has two NS blades (though the N one has been replaced) but has the gilt 'underplate' that I associate with earlier productions !

Alan O · #12 14-10-12, 08:41 AM

May I suggest that this was for a cap where the bade was worn low to the brim - FSC or a torrin. The use of a lugged badge would mean an uncomfortable lower lug and lin by the wearer's brow/ hairline. The tongue would fix the bottom of the badge to the brim of the cap without passing through it. The change to the peaked cap would negate this requirement.

KLR · #13 14-10-12, 09:45 AM

I think this is the direction my thinking is going too. The FSC was certainly worn by troops in India long after the peaked cap appeared - certainly by ORs so I presume by officers too (and by Vol and TF battalions though I don't know if such examples for them exist). However, looking back at this thread I notice that Kevin referred to a 1917 HM lancer badge ! As I know little about cavalry can anyone confirm that lancer officers wore a FSC or torin for undress ???