Pagri badges

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

I'm still trawling around for other illustration of Jocks wearing badges with the FSH, but no luck todate. However I've attached these two of the Seaforth Highlanders, taken in Crete in the late c.1888/9. In the foreground is the Band of the Searforths clearly wearing a hackle to the left of their white FSH. Closer examination seems to imply the hackle is worn above what appears to be a cloth patch, which is possibly the scarlet cut down shoulder title.

Seaforth Band in the foreground. With thanks to the GMIC

Graham

Didnt they wear a Tartan square patch below the hackle normally?

(Below) John 'Jack' Daniel Kershaw, photographed around 1925 when he was serving in the Seaforth Highlanders.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Graham

Didnt they wear a Tartan square patch below the hackle normally?

(Below) John 'Jack' Daniel Kershaw, photographed around 1925 when he was serving in the Seaforth Highlanders.

Nice piccies and it would appear that the Seaforths may have changed hackle colour, unless the owner of those previous pics posted got the unit wrong. The white FSH looks as though it's been tarted up for the Dehli Durbar, which is when they had to appear at their best for the visiting sovereign.

[Toby Purcell]

These are interesting photos of Lincolnshire Regt soldiers wearing the final pattern of FSH known as the Solar Topee or Sun Helmet. Notice that there is a coloured fold in the helmet's pagri and what appears to be a very small badge mounted at front centre. As this is clearly not the regiment's normal cap or collar badge I can only wonder if it is the famous Imp worn only by the 4th Battalion.

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Toby Purcell

These are interesting photos of Lincolnshire Regt soldiers wearing the final pattern of FSH known as the Solar Topee or Sun Helmet. Notice that there is a coloured fold in one of the helmet's pagri and what appears to be a very small badge mounted at front centre. As this is clearly not the regiment's normal cap or collar badge I can only wonder if it is the famous Imp worn only by the 4th Battalion.

Just blown it up and you'll be surprised when I tell you what it is - it's the old plain greatcoat 'T' seen worn by Territorials.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

Just blown it up and you'll be surprised when I tell you what it is - it's the old plain greatcoat 'T' seen worn by Territorials.

Very surprised, never heard of that before. Amazing the things we learn here! I bet that was not in the "regulations"!

[cbuehler]

Getting back to some of the photos showing soldiers with metal badges affixed to the FSH, one should consider that soldiers often enhanced their appearance or uniform for the photo op.
Non regulation additions or modifications are common in these studio portraits and they cannot always be taken as a reliable indication of what was actually worn.
The Gordons photo is particularly suspicious and is the only one I have ever seen (not claiming that I am an expert and have seen everything).
I have to agree with Graham that non metallic insignia was the norm for helmets in the vast majority of cases, and my own opinion is that many studio portraits which show metal badges on the helmet are likely not regulation!
I am also convinced that long sliders or sliders appearing on Scottish badges are not necessarily intended for the Pagri.
Just my 2 cents worth.

CB

[Graham Stewart]

post-13254-1227470031 (Copy).jpg

Managed to find one of the Royal Scots, although not very good, but once again the position of the badge is clearly seen to be located above the pagri and in my opinion the close fit again would point to lugs rather than slider.

CB - know what you mean regarding "embellishment", but depsite their rarity I'm still inclined to think that the use of badges on the FSH, was taken either by the C/O of the battalion concerned or at regimental level. During service in India you had two FSH helmets, one in khaki for campaign and one in white for best.

The overlying problem with India, is the remoteness from Horse Guards and between 1900 & 1939, regiments in India seem to change their devices at a whim. Perhaps what I should be doing is making up a database of FSH devices worn between these periods in the hope it'll help both collectors and researchers out at times like this - but where do you start, as dating Indian photo's is difficult at the best of times?

[cbuehler]

Originally Posted by Graham Stewart

Attachment 46255

Managed to find one of the Royal Scots, although not very good, but once again the position of the badge is clearly seen to be located above the pagri and in my opinion the close fit again would point to lugs rather than slider.

CB - know what you mean regarding "embellishment", but depsite their rarity I'm still inclined to think that the use of badges on the FSH, was taken either by the C/O of the battalion concerned or at regimental level. During service in India you had two FSH helmets, one in khaki for campaign and one in white for best.

The overlying problem with India, is the remoteness from Horse Guards and between 1900 & 1939, regiments in India seem to change their devices at a whim. Perhaps what I should be doing is making up a database of FSH devices worn between these periods in the hope it'll help both collectors and researchers out at times like this - but where do you start, as dating Indian photo's is difficult at the best of times?

Hi Graham,
You may have a point with regard to the two helmet issue. Most studio photos will depict the soldier dressed in his best and there is where the some of the answer may be.
I still think that many of these photos can be highly doubtful with regard to dress and insignia given the universal habit of soldiers preening up before the camera, particularly in India.
There are instances wherein a studio would even have a stock of "props"
to lend to the soldier if he so desired to improve his appearance.
A stock dress helmet complete with shiny spike at the ready to stick on his regimental badge and be prominently displayed on the table next to him is not implausible at all.
At the end of ww2, many US soldiers, particularly Airborne, had their picture taken in a studio utilizing a badged up Ike jacket or cap complete with DUI's, foragerre, shoulder insignia etc. that was shared by all as none of them had all the bells and whistles on their own uniforms.

CB

[2747andy]

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

Gentlemen,

I'm very sorry but I do not for one minute go with the theory that soldiers would "Tart Up" or embelish their standard orders of dress just for a photo!

Uniform means Uniform.. They would probably polish, press and prune but embelish! I DON'T THINK SO!

Americans.. perhaps yes? British! - NO!

Andy

[CftD]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

Gentlemen,

I'm very sorry but I do not for one minute go with the theory that soldiers would "Tart Up" or embelish their standard orders of dress just for a photo!

Uniform means Uniform.. They would probably polish, press and prune but embelish! I DON'T THINK SO!

Americans.. perhaps yes? British! - NO!

Andy

So why did certain Tyneside Irish soldiers put their shoulder title badges into their caps for their wedding photographs ? To say that no embelishment took place is, from photographic evidence, clearly not correct. I'm not saying that it was widespread but it certainly happened . David

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

So why did certain Tyneside Irish soldiers put their shoulder title badges into their caps for their wedding photographs ? To say that no embelishment took place is, from photographic evidence, clearly not correct. I'm not saying that it was widespread but it certainly happened . David

David,

I believe STs and collars were worn as cap badges so this cannot be regarded as an embelishment! Probably widespread because it was uniform?

Andy

[Graham Stewart]

Originally Posted by Counsel for the Defence

So why did certain Tyneside Irish soldiers put their shoulder title badges into their caps for their wedding photographs ? To say that no embelishment took place is, from photographic evidence, clearly not correct. I'm not saying that it was widespread but it certainly happened . David

David - quite true and sometimes we tend to forget this sort of thing went on. Recently we had a lovely photo on the Great War Forum, where a young lad was wearing badges of "two" units - the Northumberland Fusiliers and Training Reserve, the latter being a Corps in it's own right.

With this sort of photograph you have to know how the system worked and both John Sheen and I concluded that he'd finished his training with the Training Reserve and had been posted to the NF and so took the opportunity to get his photo taken a.s.a.p.. Which is exactly how the system worked as once the Training Reservist's completed their training, they were posted and shipped out pronto.

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH!

Gentlemen,

I'm very sorry but I do not for one minute go with the theory that soldiers would "Tart Up" or embelish their standard orders of dress just for a photo!

Uniform means Uniform.. They would probably polish, press and prune but embelish! I DON'T THINK SO!

Americans.. perhaps yes? British! - NO!

Andy

Andy

I am of like mind to CB and would not make such a sweeping statement that dress regulations were never broken. As far as I am aware collar badges were not authorized for O/R service dress prior to and during the Great War period.

Many studio portraits of the great war period show collar badges added to SD, I can also think of some photos of VC investitures where the O/Rs have added collar badges to SD. In some instances these are the regimental full dress badges (IWM photo Q54252 Michael O Rourke , 7th British Columbia Rgt CEF and James Ockenden 1 Bn R.D.F. in 1917 receiving the VC ) or in others (several examples in the Tyneside Irish book by Sheen) where the soldier has placed the shoulder title Harp badge on his collars in SD.

Minor infractions perhaps but still it did occur, I am sure someone will correct me if I am mistaken about collar badges in SD for O/Rs.

John

[Peter Brydon]

Then of course there was this was this thread which showed what could happen when a soldier was having his photo taken:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=17719

P.B.

[GriffMJ]

Hertfordshire Yeomanry FSH (Gallipoli)

Also showing:-

Shoeing-Smith Corporal Whitmore, Palestine, 1917 (you can just make out the HY on the FSH)