FIFE AND FORFAR J.R.GAUNT B'HAM

[tonyb]

Now I've managed to source a Fife and Fofar Yeomanry cap badge I'm happy with, thanks to member NEMO. I thought I'd post the Gaunt B'ham it replaces.
After some research on the forum, the date for Gaunt B'ham marked badges is from 1966. This badge should date to prior to 1956, when the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry amalgamated with the Scottish horse.
Regards Tony.

[tonyb]

And the reverse.

[GriffMJ]

Tony

I think a 1966 issue will have the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON" mark...... the B'HAM is post 1970 isnt it? Wasn't the last issue a small Thane with slider for the beret?

[tonyb]

Hi Griff dated Gaunt B'ham using this thread/post #24 as a reference.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...nt+bham&page=2
Cheers Tony.

[GriffMJ]

(edit) repeated info....

[Alan O]

The Fife and Forfar wore the large Fife badge in w/m on a black beret. Some time in the 50s the small Gaunt London badge was introduced which was then replaced by the amalgamation badge following their merger with the Scottish horse in 1956. This comes in both white-metal and a/a.

Both the large Thain and the post 56 badge were reproduced by Gaunt Bham. If there were ever candidates for the re-use of old dies then these badges are the best examples.

[2747andy]

Alan,
is that a type O and Bi-metal should be Wm? The Gaunt B'Ham F&FSH was reproduced from a different die to the genuine item and I suspect a die created for that purpose i.e. the collectors market. The original die(s) would have been MOD property so to use them to create "Fakes" would have been a dodgy enterprise to say the least (?) even one in financial difficulty!

Andy

[tonyb]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan,
is that a type O and Bi-metal should be Wm? The Gaunt B'Ham F&FSH was reproduced from a different die to the genuine item and I suspect a die created for that purpose i.e. the collectors market. The original die(s) would have been MOD property so to use them to create "Fakes" would have been a dodgy enterprise to say the least (?) even one in financial difficulty!

Andy

Andy interesting supposition ref the two dies used. I've two examples of this badge. I wonder do I have two copies or could the unmarked badge be genuine?
Regards Tony.

[tonyb]

And the front.

[Alan O]

2 versions of the 1960s badge exist. The Gaunt version used by both London and Bhan marks and the modern die used to reproduce them today.

there is no difference between the Gaunt London and the later repro'ed Bham badges. They are from the same die.

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Alan,
is that a type O and Bi-metal should be Wm? The Gaunt B'Ham F&FSH was reproduced from a different die to the genuine item and I suspect a die created for that purpose i.e. the collectors market. The original die(s) would have been MOD property so to use them to create "Fakes" would have been a dodgy enterprise to say the least (?) even one in financial difficulty!

Andy

It is not true to say that badge dies belong to the purchasing organisation. Having been responsible in the past for placing orders for insignia with various manufacturers, including Gaunt, Dowler, Firmin and London Badge, I can tell you that most badge manufacturers require the purchasing organisation to pay 49% of the die cost. The remaining 51% is met by the manufacturer. They do this to ensure that the die remains with them and thus ensures that repeat orders are placed with their company and not a competitor.

However, there are exceptions. Having spoken to manufacturers in the past they tell me that where an organisation places a very large order e.g. the MoD or say the Metropolitan Police, the manufacturer will often not charge for the sinking of a die but will simply charge for each badge. The cost of the die being absorbed.

In the first case, if the manufacturer uses the die to produce further examples of the badge without consent, the part owner of the die can seek legal redress. In the second case although the die belongs to the manufacturer, he takes a risk if he produces additional badges from it. Most badges consist of a design associated with a particular regiment etc. I would suggest that the designs (even of defunct regiments) are the intellectual property of the MoD (or whoever) and as such they could (if they were minded) seek to take proceedings against any person selling items bearing that design. Its rather like making and selling a trademarked sweatshirt without permission of the trademark holder. In addition, if the item bears a "Royal" emblem then there is additional legislation touching upon such use without permission.

So, those commercially minded individuals who re-produce badges (of any type) without consent of the intellectual property owner take a bit of a risk (however slight) of someone taking them to task for doing so.

Dave.

[Alan O]

Dave

Thank you for it. Interestingly the MOD only copyrighted its badges and logos circa 2005 and before that anyone could manufacture items using those designs with impunity.

Alan

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by Alan O

Dave

Thank you for it. Interestingly the MOD only copyrighted its badges and logos circa 2005 and before that anyone could manufacture items using those designs with impunity.

Alan

Alan,

Copyright and intellectual property rights are two different issues. Even if a product has not been made the subject of copyright, intellectual property rights are still applicable. I suspect that the MoD only sought to copyright those badges which were being used in at the time and not previous designs. Also, the use of Royal emblems is a further matter which is outside the purview of the MoD. who cannot grant permission for such use (nor would I suspect that they would wish to). Its a rather academic discussion the substance of which many "reproducers" (including manufacturers) tend to overlook.

Dave.

[Alan O]

Dave

They did indeed copyright all current designs but lost the argument about the RAF roundel which they failed to secure.

Alan

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by altcar73

It is not true to say that badge dies belong to the purchasing organisation. Having been responsible in the past for placing orders for insignia with various manufacturers, including Gaunt, Dowler, Firmin and London Badge, I can tell you that most badge manufacturers require the purchasing organisation to pay 49% of the die cost. The remaining 51% is met by the manufacturer. They do this to ensure that the die remains with them and thus ensures that repeat orders are placed with their company and not a competitor.

However, there are exceptions. Having spoken to manufacturers in the past they tell me that where an organisation places a very large order e.g. the MoD or say the Metropolitan Police, the manufacturer will often not charge for the sinking of a die but will simply charge for each badge. The cost of the die being absorbed.

In the first case, if the manufacturer uses the die to produce further examples of the badge without consent, the part owner of the die can seek legal redress. In the second case although the die belongs to the manufacturer, he takes a risk if he produces additional badges from it. Most badges consist of a design associated with a particular regiment etc. I would suggest that the designs (even of defunct regiments) are the intellectual property of the MoD (or whoever) and as such they could (if they were minded) seek to take proceedings against any person selling items bearing that design. Its rather like making and selling a trademarked sweatshirt without permission of the trademark holder. In addition, if the item bears a "Royal" emblem then there is additional legislation touching upon such use without permission.

So, those commercially minded individuals who re-produce badges (of any type) without consent of the intellectual property owner take a bit of a risk (however slight) of someone taking them to task for doing so.

Dave.

Dave,
I also agree that in more recent years suppliers have bourne more of the set up costs, but in the case of the earlier badges (pre anodised) the dies were not their property, and they were just the custodians! The myth that in more recent years, manufactures have reproduced badges from the "original" dies is nothing but hogwash spouted by those less honourable sellers to add some some false credibility to what are nothing but fakes and copies! I am still amazed how many dealers still list non anodised Gaunt B'HAM badges as genuine?

Andy