Royal Navy and Royal Marines wear of parawings

[Alain Conradi]

Dear all, in the revised BR 81 (Royal Navy and Royal Marines Uniform Regulations) of 1984 (supersedes 1966 edition) paragraph 0320.6 describes the wear of flying badges. For the blue uniform it states on the left sleeve, on the white and khaki/stone uniform it is above the left breast pocket. (see photo)
The same regulation describes in the following paragraph 0321 the parachutist badge. In 0321.3 it says the parachutist badge is to be worn in the same manner and position as flying badges and marks paragraph 0320.6 as reference. (see photo)
This surprises me a lot, always had the idea parawings were worn on the right upper sleeve but it seems back in 1984 it was completely different (navy only).
Anyone got more info on that (or even pictures)?
Cheers,
Alain

[Colin S]

The Royal Marines have always worn parachutes wings on the right shoulder.

The Royal Navy is different. In the 1980s parachute wings were worn on the right shoulder when ‘army style’ clothing was worn - camouflage smocks and ‘commando’ jumpers - but they were worn on the left lower sleeve when navy ‘rig’ was worn - blue dress uniforms etc. This was the same position as the pilot’s wings were being worn in the 1980s, where they had been worn since WWII.

I believe the same applied to navy white dress uniforms.

I don’t believe the Navy have ever worn parachute rings on the left breast, but I’m army, so perhaps I’ll be corrected by those who know better.

The regulations quoted above describe the navy version of the wings which were in bullion for navy full dress (No.1) uniforms. The wings used on the Navy’s everyday uniforms (No.3s) were red on black (for ratings), and for army style clothing were the army issue - white parachute with blue wings on khaki. I think the regulations only covered the usual navy uniforms, without any thought of the very small number of men who served ashore in camouflage kit - Royal Navy Commandos etc.

It all changed in 2003 when the wear of para wings was standardised on the right shoulder.

[Alan O]

Indeed for the RN to wear wings on the left breast would be far too close to the WW2 SAS for it not to have invited comment!

[mike_vee]

Effective February 2019
CHAPTER 40
ROYAL MARINES OFFICERS AND OTHER RANKS

Page 18 covers :

f. Flying Badges

g. Parachutist Badge

Foreign parachute wings may be worn just above the top right breast pocket on combat uniforms, but only when serving with the Armed Forces that awarded the wings in the first place.

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/-/media...chapter-40.pdf

.

[Alan O]

That's exactly the same for Army personnel who have earned French, US, Australian wings etc. The rule is only one set though. I did know a Para who had 3 smocks: each with a different set of Foreign Wings on.

[Alain Conradi]

Guys, I'm not talking about foreign parawings, but about UK parawings for wear on Navy uniform. And did some extra research : what I say is correct, UK parawings were worn on the leftcuff of the blue uniform and above the left pocket for other uniforms. You didn't see it often because of the order of the badges, flying badges came first (also worn on the chest of the other uniforms) so parawings were (couldn't) mostly not worn. In 1991 there was a "ban" on parawings for naval personnel (DCI(RN) 273 from 29 November 1991) until they were reinstated in 2003 (DCI(RN) 131 from 14 November 2003). At that point it was also decided to wear the parawings on the upper right arm to one avoid conflict with flying badges and two be in compliance with all the other forces. So in short, the UK Navy did wear parawings on the breast, although not often seen because of the "superior" flying badge taking that place, until 1991. As of 2003 all navy personnel wears its parawings on the right upperarm like the rest of the armed forces.
If you don't believe me, please check it here, you'll find a lot of great info here. Takes some time to go through it all, but it pays off :-)) : https://rmhistorical.com/royalnavy

[Colin S]

Originally Posted by Alain Conradi

Guys, I'm not talking about foreign parawings, but about UK parawings for wear on Navy uniform. And did some extra research : what I say is correct, UK parawings were worn on the leftcuff of the blue uniform and above the left pocket for other uniforms. You didn't see it often because of the order of the badges, flying badges came first (also worn on the chest of the other uniforms) so parawings were (couldn't) mostly not worn. In 1991 there was a "ban" on parawings for naval personnel (DCI(RN) 273 from 29 November 1991) until they were reinstated in 2003 (DCI(RN) 131 from 14 November 2003). At that point it was also decided to wear the parawings on the upper right arm to one avoid conflict with flying badges and two be in compliance with all the other forces. So in short, the UK Navy did wear parawings on the breast, although not often seen because of the "superior" flying badge taking that place, until 1991. As of 2003 all navy personnel wears its parawings on the right upperarm like the rest of the armed forces.
If you don't believe me, please check it here, you'll find a lot of great info here. Takes some time to go through it all, but it pays off :-)) : https://rmhistorical.com/royalnavy

Very few, if any, sailors would qualify for both pilots/aircrew wings AND parachute wings, as few jobs would require both qualifications, so most parachutists would not need to worry about any conflict in wearing the ‘superior’ flying badge and would be wearing parachute wings or nothing. Whatever the regulations may have said, I would be very interested in seeing any evidence that navy parachute wings were worn on the left breast, a site normally reserved for aircrew badges (the reason given for refusing the SAS from wearing operational wings on the chest after WWII). I have never seen a sailor wearing parachute wings on the left breast, nor any photos either.

Happy to be proved wrong if there’s evidence but regulations and reality are not always the same. Any matelots able to help?

[Royal]

Originally Posted by Alain Conradi

In 1991 there was a "ban" on parawings for naval personnel (DCI(RN) 273 from 29 November 1991) until they were reinstated in 2003 (DCI(RN) 131 from 14 November 2003).

https://rmhistorical.com/royalnavy

In my expereince, the ban, while extant, was fairly widely ignored by jump qualified RN Commandos when wearing DPM and even occasionally in 1s and 2s.

[Jim Maclean]

DCI(RN) 273 quite clearly states the wearing of the badge is allowed by those already qualified until they leave the service. It also states Officers and Warrant Officers. No mention of Junior and Senior Rates.

[Alain Conradi]

Originally Posted by Jim Maclean

DCI(RN) 273 quite clearly states the wearing of the badge is allowed by those already qualified until they leave the service. It also states Officers and Warrant Officers. No mention of Junior and Senior Rates.

Correct, but then read the first line of DCI(RN) 131 of 2003 which reinstates the wear of the wing. That clearly states that as of December 1991 RN Officers and Ratings who ...

Anyway, for me the discussion ends, regulations clearly state that Royal Navy members would wear a parawing above the left breastpocket before 1991 on non-blue uniform - that in fact was my question. If it was done in practice or not is not important; as someone already mentioned regulations and practice are two different things. But as a former RSM regulations are what counts, not the "idea" of an individual who feels doing things outside regulations :-)))).