Popski badge authentic?

[castagain]

Hello Mike,

I think you have one of the first batch of PPA badges, hand made in brass by a Jewish silversmith whose shop was on the Shareh El Manakh in Cairo. A beautiful piece! Jonathan Pittaway shows one on page 127 of his excellent book “Long Range Desert Group Rhodesia: The Men Speak.”

Stay well,
Donovan

[dumdum]

Hi all

A sort of PPA related post but one that I will have to check on the details of if there is interest.

I was discussing badges, etc. with a guy I've known for many years. A sometime antique dealer, he told me that he and his Dad sailed out to Australia in an old tug boat in the 60's.

Setting aside the adventure that this might have been, they called in at an island (Cocos & Keeling?) on the way for provisions. There was a gent whose name I will have to check on (only a phone call) who had been a member of PPA and was awarded the MM. Members may already be able to supply the name by now.

He wanted to sell his medals but this guy's Dad wouldn't let him buy them. The old man did, however give him his PPA badge.

I'll try to fill in some more details if anyone is interested.

[dumdum]

Originally Posted by castagain

Hello Mike,

I think you have one of the first batch of PPA badges, hand made in brass by a Jewish silversmith whose shop was on the Shareh El Manakh in Cairo. A beautiful piece! Jonathan Pittaway shows one on page 127 of his excellent book “Long Range Desert Group Rhodesia: The Men Speak.”

Stay well,
Donovan

Would this be an Issac Faber who is said to have made the silver LRP badge? I was given his name many years back by an ex-LRDG man, now deceased.

[mike_vee]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Would this be an Issac Faber who is said to have made the silver LRP badge? I was given his name many years back by an ex-LRDG man, now deceased.

Found this from "Popski's Private Army" :

and it seemed now a fitting symbol for a unit which would have to navigate its way by the stars, so I took my book-plate to a Jewish silversmith [1] off the Shareh el Manakh and got him to cut in brass a reduced and simplified design of this astrolabe, which we would use as a hat badge.

Notes:
1. Probably the L.R.D.G's badge supplier Isaac Faber

.

[BROOKIES]

Originally Posted by 49lassiepen

Regarding popski badge I can not help in the identification But this may be of general interest An old fellow collector now deceased,who had 2 rooms full of badge frames was showing me some of his collection I asked him how he knew the popski badge was genuine to which he produced a letter- Dear Mr I...... please find enclosed badge removed from my headress signed as you may have quessed by the man himself

Just to add, George did write to a lot of people in the early 1950's (would put on a uniform when writing to them ??) and I can remember seeing the letter and badge, did point out to him that it was hallmarked for 1952.

One thing he did have was a letter from David Sterling with a badge attached and some photo's (he'd write asking for badges), silly fool sent them (originals) to the SAS "museum" for them to have a look at, never to be seen again.

Jonathan

[Volunteer Soldier]

With regard to the 15+ and 1974 posts mentioning re-struck badges I note our "friend" Military Soldier, Bourne, Lincs, in 1979, was selling PPA wm (£80), PPA brass (£75), PPA Special HM Silver (Only 200 issued £25) and PPA Silver Plate at £5. Sadly, no photographs - it was simply take your pick, pay your money and await your dud badges.

[Luke H]

The silver badges offered by Roger Verner were the LB&B Co marked fakes.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ctureid=207541

Member Eddie did post his original (pun intended) sales advert for these in his Mons album but it now appears to be gone. Hopefully he sees this and re-posts it in this thread.

Edit: fortuitously I appear to have saved it. Shan’t post the pic as it’s Dave’s not mine but it reads…

‘‘In recent years we have had a large number of collectors asking if they could buy a re-strike or copy of this badge.

As most collectors know, Popski's Private Army was a very small unit of men who operated behind enemy lines in Africa and Italy during World War II.
They were led by Vladimir Peniakoff (alias Popski).

Because of this demand we have had a limited edition of this famous badge struck in Sterling Silver. All of them will be numbered and Hall-Marked 1977 with the special Jubilee H. M.

These will only be available from Roger Verner & Son.

To avoid disappointment, please order now whilst you have the opportunity.

The price will be £15. 00 (including V.A. T.)

If you wish you may pay by instalments of £2.00 each week.’’

[Volunteer Soldier]

Gosh Luke,
You must have been a special customer - he wanted me, and others, to pay £25.

[Luke H]

No. I wasn’t around back then.

It’s from a printed advert in his list which member Eddie owns.

Perhaps you got the inflation hit one.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by castagain

Hello Mike,

I think you have one of the first batch of PPA badges, hand made in brass by a Jewish silversmith whose shop was on the Shareh El Manakh in Cairo. A beautiful piece! Jonathan Pittaway shows one on page 127 of his excellent book “Long Range Desert Group Rhodesia: The Men Speak.”

Stay well,
Donovan

Hello Donovan - I think you have come up trumps - but will await member opinion - I have blown up the very early brass badge Jonathan has on p127 of his superb 'Long Range Desert Group Rhodesia - The Men Speak' - and put it next to the silver example Hugh King got from Popski at a Military Historical Society meeting - it is the first time I have come across any example with similar / exactly the same markings - VERY MANY THANKS FOR YOUR DETECTIVE WORK. It may stand to reason, Popski would have a silver example (mine -ex Hugh King - is silver) - huge thanks - Mike

My Silver badge to left in images below

Any observations appreciated

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by dumdum

Would this be an Issac Faber who is said to have made the silver LRP badge? I was given his name many years back by an ex-LRDG man, now deceased.

It would be great if someone could confirm - thanks for asking

[Luke H]

Hope all is well Mike.

Comparing your badge and the one shown in ‘Long Range Desert Group Rhodesia - The Men Speak’ by Pittaway there are some differences (metal aside).

Hopefully you don’t mind I’ve tried to brighten and enlarge the images.





But my thoughts are this may just be tooling to finish it off if the marks are hand cut / finished, potentially.

Are the sides of the upper part of your badge visible in your pic Mike? It makes it look a bit 3D and distorts the shape if my observations are correct.

Finally just to add forum member ‘weetad’ showed the below badge in this thread that belonged to his father who served in the PPA. Hopefully he doesn’t mind me using the image. Sadly that was his only post on the forum.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Hope all is well Mike.

Comparing your badge and the one shown in ‘Long Range Desert Group Rhodesia - The Men Speak’ by Pittaway there are some differences (metal aside).

Hopefully you don’t mind I’ve tried to brighten and enlarge the images.





But my thoughts are this may just be tooling to finish it off if the marks are hand cut / finished, potentially.

Are the sides of the upper part of your badge visible in your pic Mike? It makes it look a bit 3D and distorts the shape if my observations are correct.

Finally just to add forum member ‘weetad’ showed the below badge in this thread that belonged to his father who served in the PPA. Hopefully he doesn’t mind me using the image. Sadly that was his only post on the forum.

Many thanks Luke - very much appreciate your observations. Also thanks for improving the images. You are right, my badge was I think photographed at an angle, and gives a 3D type finish.

With the early badges being hand tooled, (I believe) I imagine some variation would be expected. I agree the representations have variances, the Silver badge is better defined perhaps, in parts - but generally, the likeness is better than anything I have compared before. I agree there is a need to be absolutely forensic, and your images help.

It is difficult to come to any conclusions, if only these items could talk - but on balance, I think the two badges have potential to have been manufactured in the same batch.

Any further comments very welcome

The third badge is quite different, more similar to later badges perhaps - it is a shame weetad could not enlighten us further ...

Thank you Luke for your help.

[Luke H]

Thanks for confirming Mike. If you had the chance one day I’d be very grateful of a snap with it sharply in profile please.

The 3D look I think slightly belies how similar the two badges are in shape and composition.

It is the vertical stand section which seems to contain the most discernible difference that are definitely not tricks of the light. Made a basic side-by-side for comparison. Both bases are strikingly similar in proportions and detail.

It’s probably the first time I’ve seen two PPAs of the ilk that are not wildly different, so I think this is a good sign. They may very well be the Cairo made batch.

Be very useful and interesting to explore if there way any provenance attached to the Pittaway example?

Now just to figure out the supposed Italian made ones! Perhaps that is ‘weetads’ father's badge? Albeit I think it looks more Middle Eastern than European made.

[Mike B]

Originally Posted by Luke H

Thanks for confirming Mike. If you had the chance one day I’d be very grateful of a snap with it sharply in profile please.

The 3D look I think slightly belies how similar the two badges are in shape and composition.

It is the vertical stand section which seems to contain the most discernible difference that are definitely not tricks of the light. Made a basic side-by-side for comparison. Both bases are strikingly similar in proportions and detail.

It’s probably the first time I’ve seen two PPAs of the ilk that are not wildly different, so I think this is a good sign. They may very well be the Cairo made batch.

Be very useful and interesting to explore if there way any provenance attached to the Pittaway example?

Now just to figure out the supposed Italian made ones! Perhaps that is ‘weetads’ father's badge? Albeit I think it looks more Middle Eastern than European made.

Great photos Luke. I will try to get better images, although mine is now behind glass - at some stage I will break into the frame again I am sure. Hugh King was quite excited to have got this silver one from Popski - I think he regarded it as a bit of a prize. I am not sure Popski charged anything for the ones he parted with - so a bit of a coup
Mike