COTC University of Ottawa

[chaudiere1944]

Just bought this badge and was hoping for some opinions. The front as you can see is highly detailed but the back is incredibly worn.

I compared it with the Badge in the Index and noticed some differences i.e. the W in Ottawa. Can anyone offer advice to whether or not this is an original or reproduction?

Thanks,
Mike

[Doug N]

It's a repop.

[Bill A]

Hi Doug, Can you list the characteristics that we should look for in the repro?

[boots and saddles]

Yes, this is what the fellow took exception last week. Mike dosen't know if it's your opinion or whether you have the facts to explain why it's a repro. We all should be aware of this and say ,It's a repro because Blah,Blah,Blah because one's opinion is as good as another. Now having said this Doug I'm sure you can give your reasoning for it. Ray

[DavidS]

seeing as I believe I have the same repro, but no original. Without looking at the original's back ('cause I have none), which I am guessing is not this smooth-backed type, I see several things. My shield overlay piece is plated copper vs what I assume should be a solid w.m. overlay on the original. All the center shield elements are different too: arrows have straight vs. curvy arrowheads, bugs have equal blobs for wings vs. large top wings and small bottom wings, thistle (esp. stem) is cruder, etc., etc. As well, the background stippling is quite different on repop (I like that word) vs original in CanBadge pic. I also see what look like tool edge marks from the stamping tool use to stipple it.

Other things: the lettering, as mentioned, differs; the three bottom dots are equal size vs small-large-small; crown has straighter side slopes and no matter how I count them, has too many dots on top rim pieces; the background stippling around COTC and dots is different; leaf details, scroll ends, and on and on.

How close did I get? Is there a prize?? Anyone want a repop cheap????

[Doug N]

Sorry, gents. Didn't mean to appear curt or high hat.

Lack of reverse detail is the diagnostic element of the copy U of O badges.
Real brass & w/m examples will have a fully struck up reverse. Real gilt & silver examples will be flat backed.

I've been told that the copies were produced from the officer (gilt & silver) die, which may account for some of the anomalies mentioned by David. One thing for sure - the copy Ottawa badges have face detail superior to the originals.

[chaudiere1944]

Hi All,

Thank you for taking the time to verify what I had suspected. Once I started to compare it with the example in the Canadian Badge Index I pretty much knew I had a reproduction....I was holding out hope that maybe just maybe it was made from a separate die.

Thankfully the mistake did not cost me too much...but then again it could have been put towards something else -lol.

Again many thanks,
Mike

[DavidS]

Originally Posted by Doug N

I've been told that the copies were produced from the officer (gilt & silver) die, which may account for some of the anomalies mentioned by David. One thing for sure - the copy Ottawa badges have face detail superior to the originals.

Stupid question, I know, and I'll hate myself in the morning, but how exactly does one have officers -- hence an officer's badge -- in an officers training corps? Aren't they all supposed to be officers?

[Wyn vdSchee]

The "troops" were officer cadets, along with a few 2/lieuts who had completed a higher level of training. Their instructors (officers) were for the most part on the faculty of the university. The "troops" wore the "ordinary" badge and the officers wore officers' badges. The officers had to qualify for higher rank through courses at one of the Corps schools, usually in the summer. Each contingent had a laid-down establishment of officers, and there had to be an establishment vacancy for an officer to be promoted.
Most contingents had their own armoury on the university campus, complete with drill floor, offices, QM stores, classrooms, and officers' mess, which was used by all members of the contingent. There was a social aspect to life in the COTC contingent as well. Training was conducted one or two evenings per week, most of it by contingent officers. I stand to be corrected, but I do not believe there were any NCOs on these establishments. If NCO-type subjects, such as drill, needed to be taught, it was done by members of a local Militia unit, either Militiamen or Regular Army Instructional and Administrative Cadre.
After the Second World War, the period with which I am familiar, officer cadets took two phases of summer training at one of the corps schools, usually of up to 16 weeks' duration. It was a means of funding their tuition. The third summer was usually spent with a field unit on some type of contact training.
After the third summer, or after graduation from university, an officer cadet could be commissioned in the Militia as a lieutenant. If he wanted to transfer to the Regular Army, he was required to take a third phase of training, to bring him up to the standard of Regular Force officer cadets/lieutenants. Alternately, he could simply transfer to the Supplementary List, and remain militarily inactive.
The first two phases/summers of training were the same for both COTC and ROTP (Regular Officer Training Plan) officer cadets. ROTP officer cadets attended either one of the three military colleges or a civilian university. If the latter they paraded with the COTC Contingent during the academic year.
The COTC, along with the University Naval Training Division and the Air Reserve Officer Training Division (I’m not certain of the exact title of the latter) were disbanded in 1968 as one of Paul Hellyer’s cost-saving measures. It had the effect of removing entirely any military presence from Canadian universities, and ensuring that future generations of Canadian students had no opportunity for contact with the Armed Forces. The disbandment also removed a primary source of officers for the Militia, and a secondary one for the Regular Army.
This is probably more than anyone wants to know about the COTC, but some collectors may want to know something of its background

[chaudiere1944]

Hi Wyn,

Thank you very much for this post...I found it to be tremendously helpful in articulating the COTC program for the Forum.

Best,
Mike

[DavidS]

Enlightening and much appreciated, Wyn. Further to officers' COTC badges, then, besides a gilt-and-silver Ottawa, do you have/know of any other examples of officer COTC patterns? All I've ever seen from other schools are typical patterns, and I can't recall ever coming across or seeing mention of anything vaguely officer-like for any of these other schools.

[8Hussar]

Dalhousie University had a blue and white enamel on sterling silver badge for the officers. Sorry, I don't collect these so I don't have one to take a picture to post but I have had two over the years.

[Doug N]

Not all, but many of the schools did have officers badges. These have the typical 'officer quality' upgrades - bi-metal overlays, precious metal plating, pickled finishes, additional voiding, coloured enamels, etc. Some contingents also had darkened badges for OSD wear.

There's at least two good reference books for the COTC - Cap Badges of the Canadian Officer Training Corps, by Roy Thompson; & The Canadian Officer Training Corps, by Chris Brooker. With these two works, (particularly the latter) information regarding officers badges is probably better consolidated for the COTC than it is for the Regiments & Corps.

[DavidS]

Found this listed by a dealer. Linking for comment. Given this thread discussion, pretty sure this is a dud, n'est ce pas?

[chaudiere1944]

Hi David,

This auction appears to be for the same version of badge I originally posted which has been determined to be a reproduction.

Today at the Etobicoke show (which was jammed packed!) I had the most amazing luck...I picked up an authentic Ottawa COTC Cap Badge. I can hardly believe I only paid $10.00. I have posted up the pics of both the repo and real badge side by side and front and back. The repo is on the left and the authentic one is on the right.

As a side note I compared it with two other authentic ones at the show...one for sale by Lou Grimshaw and the other by Vern Donaldson and they were a match to this one.

Best,
Mike