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  #1  
Old 23-03-20, 11:03 AM
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Default Wounded men

Cant make out that shoulder title?
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File Type: jpg wounded.jpg (72.1 KB, 163 views)
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  #2  
Old 23-03-20, 11:17 AM
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Grenadier Guards if you mean the cloth title? Corroborated by the GG SNCO's grenade above his 3-stripes.
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File Type: jpg GG C ST.jpg (63.3 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg GG SNCO gren.jpg (49.1 KB, 0 views)

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 23-03-20 at 11:35 AM.
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  #3  
Old 23-03-20, 11:55 AM
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Two of the guys are wearing picklehaubers, at first I thought they may be POW's, but I think they were trophys.

Great photo, thanks for sharing.

Rob
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  #4  
Old 23-03-20, 02:20 PM
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Chap sitting lower right with his cap tilted back ,just in front of a wounded soldier with a bandage around his neck looks to have Middlesex Regt cap badge?
Or is that just my wishful thinking


Gerard
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  #5  
Old 24-03-20, 03:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gb64 View Post
Chap sitting lower right with his cap tilted back ,just in front of a wounded soldier with a bandage around his neck looks to have Middlesex Regt cap badge?
Or is that just my wishful thinking


Gerard
He has what appears to be a formation badge upper left arm, dark shield shape? Although this appears darker and crisper than the background? Retouched at some point?
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  #6  
Old 24-03-20, 08:40 PM
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I can't make out that dark shield either. The cap badge looks similar to Middlesex at that angle.
The Pickelhauben are Bavarian and missing their spikes (or balls if Arty.) and chinstraps!

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  #7  
Old 31-03-20, 01:07 PM
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Out of interest I enclose another photo of the exact same scene. It seems that there must have been a press photographer or correspondent present at the RAP or CCS that day who took a series of photographs.

The shield shaped felt arm patch can be seen more clearly in this alternative view and itís also clear that the Grenadier Guard is a Corporal, rather than Sergeant. At that time there was an Acting Corporal and Corporal in the Foot Guards, with the former being the equivalent of Lance Corporal in the remainder of the infantry. Both wore 2-stripes, but Iím suspecting from this photo that the Corporals had a gilding metal grenade above their rank, as a differential from the Acting Corporal, which would have made clear their superior status. It would be good to see further images that might corroborate that theory.
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  #8  
Old 31-03-20, 01:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Out of interest I enclose another photo of the exact same scene. It seems that there must have been a press photographer or correspondent present at the RAP or CCS that day who took a series of photographs.

The shield shaped felt arm patch can be seen more clearly in this alternative view and itís also clear that the Grenadier Guard is a Corporal, rather than Sergeant. At that time there was an Acting Corporal and Corporal in the Foot Guards, with the former being the equivalent of Lance Corporal in the remainder of the infantry. Both wore 2-stripes, but Iím suspecting from this photo that the Corporals had a gilding metal grenade above their rank, as a differential from the Acting Corporal, which would have made clear their superior status. It would be good to see further images that might corroborate that theory.
I was wondering about the small gilding metal grenade myself Toby. Could i copy this photo please ?
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Old 31-03-20, 02:35 PM
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My understanding is that the grenade badge was worn on SD by GG NCOs and WOs except the SM, so if they have such an appointment as A/Cpl, we now have three soldiers wearing two chevrons and the grenade: LCPl, A/Cpl and Cpl.

The number of full corporals to be given L/Sgt status and three chevrons was limited before, during and after the war [Foot Guards Standing Orders 1911 and 1922] so there would certainly be corporals awaiting elevation.

The other question is what would an A/Cpl be paid? War Establishments and the Pay Warrant make no provision for appointing them or paying them. Why have an A/Cpl when the CO can appoint as many unpaid LCpls [ie paid as Guardsmen] as he sees fit, because he was only limited in the number of paid LCpls.

Perhaps the CWGC site may have A/Cpls among the dead. I will have a look.
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  #10  
Old 31-03-20, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
I was wondering about the small gilding metal grenade myself Toby. Could i copy this photo please ?
Andy
You are welcome to copy any photo that I post.

Ironically I rediscovered my own research of years ago and I can confirm that the grenade was worn by Corporals, but not by Acting Corporals (i.e. Lance Corporal Equivalent).

I enclose a photo of Corporal Ernest Bailey, of Ilford, who enlisted with the Grenadier Guards in the Spring of 1914. By the time his battalion deployed he had been appointed as an Acting Corporal and so was clearly doing well. He can be seen on parade at the right flank of the front rank in Wellington Barracks. In the second photo he is photographed with a group sat in a doorway in 1916 and has been promoted to Corporal (with the grenade above his two stripes). He was killed in action before the end of the war. It seems that in some battalions the cloth grenade was worn and in some others the brass grenade worn in lieu (or perhaps because they were more readily available in the field).

Another interesting feature of the latter photo is a Guards Corporal wearing a rarely seen other ranks pattern of blue patrol frock. These were not issued, but made up from scratch by the battalion tailor's shop. I imagine that they were worn for certain duties such as when employed in the messes, but further research is needed. They were clearly a form of undress and broadly equivalent to the blue undress uniform still worn by Guards for some duties today. No collar badge is worn and stripes are formed from gold braid, a single strand per stripe today, but originally formed by outlining the stripes with the braid. A practice that was emulated by the Rifle Brigade.
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  #11  
Old 31-03-20, 02:50 PM
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Toby,

Very interesting information and something I have never encountered before. Was the use of the Acting Corporal Rank universal among the Foot Guard Regiments and if so have you any idea what emblem would be worn above the chevrons by the other Regiments, I can not imagine a grenade would go down too well, certainly not in my Old Regiment or the others for that matter.

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  #12  
Old 31-03-20, 02:50 PM
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And here are some more photos showing Acting Corporal and Corporal. The large group shows reservists recalled to the colours in 1914, along with an Acting Corporal. Note that some have the old pattern SD with twisted cord shoulder straps.
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File Type: jpg GG Reservists 1914.jpg (61.5 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg Cpl GG.jpg (48.6 KB, 19 views)
File Type: jpg GG Corporal.jpg (66.9 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Ernest Arthur Allwood as a sergeant and corporal.jpg (33.4 KB, 16 views)
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  #13  
Old 31-03-20, 02:52 PM
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CWGC hs 499 LCpl,
84 Cpl,
zero Acting corporal [site accepts all versions such as A/Cpl and ACpl.

Proves nothing but very suggestive.
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  #14  
Old 31-03-20, 02:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grumpy View Post
CWGC hs 499 LCpl,
84 Cpl,
zero Acting corporal [site accepts all versions such as A/Cpl and ACpl.

Proves nothing but very suggestive.
I've seen it described online via various sources as both, Lance Corporal, and Acting Corporal. Whether one was army usage and the other regimental usage I don't know. It's unclear to me too. IIRC Bruce Bassett-Powell on his website uniformology.com describes it as Acting Corporal, but I've no idea where he got his information from. There's long been the assertion that the Foot Guards do not have Lance Corporals like the rest of the army so perhaps the Acting Corporal description has some credence. More research needed I think. The key point, however, is that the grenade was only worn by the 'full' Corporal.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 31-03-20 at 03:10 PM.
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  #15  
Old 31-03-20, 02:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
And here are some more photos showing Acting Corporal and Corporal. The large group shows reservists recalled to the colours in 1914, along with an Acting Corporal. Note that some have the old pattern SD with twisted cord shoulder straps.
Your two single photos might show ACpls of GG .... they have good conduct badges which corporals were not allowed. How can you be sure they have ACpl status please?

I cannot get my head round acting corporal: is there any documentary evidence to counter the evidences that I have quoted please?

Happy to lean new facts as ever.
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