GR armband, VTC and Royal Norfolk Veterans Association

[rob carman]

Please can you help with some questions on a Norfolk armband.

In ~2011 I downloaded an image of a red arm band with black GR on it. I did not make a note of where I found the image; in any event it is not my image. For ages I assumed it showed a VTC “GR” armband but recently I noticed the label (really an admission ticket I think) in the image says, “Royal Norfolk Veterans Association, July 1911”. That July the King inspected the RNVR at the Norfolk Show. I have notes saying the armband was lined with rough linen, stamped “4th Bn Norfolk Volunteer C Wymondham Coy”.

My notes (where from?) say the RNVA has a small-framed picture showing the inspection or more particularly the “Parade State”, although I do not know what that means. The Norfolk Museums Collections lists two images, NWHCM:1926.130.FAP3 and NWHCM:1926.130.FAP4 with similar titles, “The RNVA 1st V.B.N.R. Veterans at the their President's Garden Party, 1911”. These photos may all show the same event, with or without armbands. I have seen none of these and I am unlikely to get to Norwich for a while.

My questions are:

1. Is this a VTC armband or something to do with the RNVA or maybe both depending on time?
2. What would the Veterans have worn for the 1911 inspection? Armbands and/or some uniform?
3. Were these Veterans organized into companies? If not, then the armband could be VTC, since Wymondham VTC was in 4 Bn, Norfolk Volunteer Regiment for part of the War.

Any pointers will be appreciated.

Rob.

[mule-73k]

Hi Rob,

I think that you are confusing 2 different units here. The VTC were war raised local units mainly for men over enlisting age and were only finally recognized and taken over by the War Office in 1916.

The Veteran's Association was a total civilian unit as far as I am aware. The Volunteer Force was the precursor of the Territorial Force formed in 1908. I would think that the [pic belongs to this unit and the armband to the later VTC.

Others on here may give you a better explanation or another line of thought.

Regards,

Dave

[badjez]

Firstly, I think we can discount any link to the Norfolk Regt, TF as C Coy was not based at Wymondham.

Secondly, was the OCA linked to a pre-1908 Norfolk Volunteer unit? I don't know anything about them to comment.

Thirdly, we might consider the Veterans Reserve.
00.05.10. AO 142: Authority given to raise a Veterans Reserve.
00.06.10. Regulations published.
00.09.11. AO 240: Retitled as National Reserve.

Fourthly, how do we know the brassard and invitation are contemporary to each other?

Lastly, the brassard resembles those used early in the Great War. It is NOT in conformity with those authorised for the National Reserve as their brassard used the letters 'NR' in black. Nor is it one issued to men who had volunteered but not received uniform as theirs were khaki with a red Crown upon.
There was an armlet issued to NCO and men of the Regular Army, and TF who had been discharged on medical grounds from the Army since the commencement of the war with a character not less than ‘good’. I have no idea of the design though.

The most likely candidate is VTC.
19.05.16. ACI 1024: Regulations for the Volunteer Force first published.
Dress- ‘The dress adopted by the Central Association Volunteer Training Corps will be recognised as a service uniform. For the purpose of temporary service a red armlet, with the letters ‘G.R.’ inscribed thereon, will be accepted as a distinctive mark of enrolment of a Volunteer when worn with plain clothes on the left arm above the elbow. These armlets will be issued by the War Office on demand, but must be indelibly marked with the names of those to whom they are issued under local arrangements’.


09.01.17. ACI 49: Introduced new pattern of Armlet for Vol Force. Made of drab mixture serge, with a crown and the letters ‘G.R.’ of red cloth, thereon, the two letters being arranged one on each side of the crown. The name of the Volunteer to which the armlet is issued will be marked on it. Improper use (including manufacture, wear and imitations of rendered the offender liable under the Defence of the Realm Regulations.

Stephen.

[rob carman]

Thank you both. Rob.

[norfolk regt man]

Hi rob , I will look into this a bit, as I am uniquely placed, being the treasurer of the r.n.v.a

[rob carman]

I will be grateful for anything you can tell me. Rob.

[norfolk regt man]

heres the frame, currently kept at sandringham house.

[norfolk regt man]

Originally Posted by rob carman

Please can you help with some questions on a Norfolk armband.

In ~2011 I downloaded an image of a red arm band with black GR on it. I did not make a note of where I found the image; in any event it is not my image. For ages I assumed it showed a VTC “GR” armband but recently I noticed the label (really an admission ticket I think) in the image says, “Royal Norfolk Veterans Association, July 1911”. That July the King inspected the RNVR at the Norfolk Show. I have notes saying the armband was lined with rough linen, stamped “4th Bn Norfolk Volunteer C Wymondham Coy”.

My notes (where from?) say the RNVA has a small-framed picture showing the inspection or more particularly the “Parade State”, although I do not know what that means. The Norfolk Museums Collections lists two images, NWHCM:1926.130.FAP3 and NWHCM:1926.130.FAP4 with similar titles, “The RNVA 1st V.B.N.R. Veterans at the their President's Garden Party, 1911”. These photos may all show the same event, with or without armbands. I have seen none of these and I am unlikely to get to Norwich for a while.

My questions are:

1. Is this a VTC armband or something to do with the RNVA or maybe both depending on time?
2. What would the Veterans have worn for the 1911 inspection? Armbands and/or some uniform?
3. Were these Veterans organized into companies? If not, then the armband could be VTC, since Wymondham VTC was in 4 Bn, Norfolk Volunteer Regiment for part of the War.

Any pointers will be appreciated.

Rob.

The RNVA paper work might be a ticket to get the holder to seat 30? in the RNVA enclosure at the Royal Norfolk show, which is a large framing based show, or as you say, into the parade ring.

[norfolk regt man]

The RNVA 1st V.B.N.R. Veterans at the their President's Garden Party, 1911”.

The Founder/president of the RNVA was also an officer in a Volunteer Batt of The Norfolk Regt, so a garden party would bring both groups together.

[norfolk regt man]

1. Is this a VTC armband or something to do with the RNVA or maybe both depending on time?
A member of the RNVA may have worn it, in his army career, but it is nothing the RNVA would has used.

2. What would the Veterans have worn for the 1911 inspection? Armbands and/or some uniform?
A suit/tie/hat, medals/ the RNVA 1909 medal if they had one. We had a band then, fully kitted out.


3. Were these Veterans organized into companies?
No, just a couple of branch's after the second world war.

If not, then the armband could be VTC, since Wymondham VTC was in 4 Bn, Norfolk Volunteer Regiment for part of the War.
not sure about this bit of info.

[norfolk regt man]

basically at that time the RNVA was a tri service old boys assoc, set up soley to make sure that a member had a proper funeral. Normally the deceases 'medals where given to us for safe keeping.

[norfolk regt man]

09.01.17. ACI 49: Introduced new pattern of Armlet for Vol Force. Made of drab mixture serge, with a crown and the letters ‘G.R.’ of red cloth, thereon, the two letters being arranged one on each side of the crown. The name of the Volunteer to which the armlet is issued will be marked on it. Improper use (including manufacture, wear and imitations of rendered the offender liable under the Defence of the Realm Regulations.

like this

[norfolk regt man]

Band cap badge
A medal group with the 1909 medal

[rob carman]

Thank you Andrew. That is very useful information.

Rob.