EU referendum

[oc14]

Originally Posted by magpie

Unfortunately some people have absolutely no idea why so many voted to leave and that includes some people who voted leave.

I know why I voted leave, firstly I am a Yorkshireman, secondly, I'm English and thirdly I'm British. One thing I am not is European, never have been, never will be, never wanted to be. I did not elect Juncker, Barnier or Tusk to run the country that I served for so long. Along with millions of others, I voted leave to be free of the daily influence of these people and their ilk.

The vote was to leave so let's get on with leaving, if that means a no deal "Hard Brexit" so be it. Remainers, there was a referendum, the majority voted to leave, in a democratic society you have to accept that, sorry if that's a little hard to either bear or understand.


PL

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by BWEF

Sorry, for some reason this was not attached to my above post.

leave1
/liːv/Submit
verb
1.
go away from.
"she left London on June 6"
synonyms: depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate; say one's farewells/goodbyes, make off, clear out, make oneself scarce, check out; abscond from, run away from, flee (from), fly from, bolt from, go AWOL, take French leave, escape (from); informalpush off, shove off, cut, cut and run, do a bunk, do a disappearing act, split, vamoose, scoot, clear off, take off, make tracks, up sticks, pack one's bags, flit; informalsling one's hook
"I left the hotel"
set off, head, make, begin one's journey, set sail
"the next morning we left for Leicester"


I have left school. I am no longer bound by school rules. I no longer have to hand in homework every morning, I no longer have to pay dinner money or for school trips that I will not be going on. I no longer take part in the annual sports day. I no longer have my mates around after school. I am not bound by any of the old school regulations such as wearing school uniform or not running in the corridors. I am not forced to take in anyone else's playmates, feed and house them because they went to a similar school in europe. In short, I have left, exactly as it said on the ballot paper.

[NEMO]

My concern is that many people voted to leave purely over immigration and not the real reasons, to all the people who voted out and now have changed their minds saying the were mislead all the information was available at the time if people had chosen to look?.

Go to any British port and see the container ships arriving from the U.S from China,Japan ,South America we can trade out side of the E.U and have done for years.



When Margaret Thatcher, long before she became the P.M was asked for her opinion about the E.U principle She replied:


" The principle of the Common Market is in a time of prosperity the stronger countries can support and help the weaker less better off ones - But what WILL happen is in a time of austerity the weaker countries will drag the rest of us down "

[Belfin]

The only good to come out of a second referendum, is that a precedent will be set.
If 'Remain' should win, we can just moan and have another until 'Leave' wins again... and so on!

[GriffMJ]

I have my voter card framed and on the wall.... it was the first time in my 51 years of life that I actually had a say in the matter. From the days of that pillock John Major I was just waiting for that chance. Finally on the 23rd of June 2016 I had my say. It was a great day.

[oc14]

Originally Posted by Belfin

The only good to come out of a second referendum, is that a precedent will be set.
If 'Remain' should win, we can just moan and have another until 'Leave' wins again... and so on!

That's so true!

[Volunteer Soldier]

But you didn't know at the time that a Remainer would lead the negotiations with the eurocrats. I feel cheated. How do you feel?

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

But you didn't know at the time that a Remainer would lead the negotiations with the eurocrats. I feel cheated. How do you feel?

...... still waiting for a proper committed leave MP to get the top job.... as should have happened after "Remainer Dave" legged it with no leave plan in place. To me thats the biggest act of betrayal of the vote..... installing May as PM in the first place. John Major caused the split in the Tories..... all of this can be traced back to his flaccid tenure. We should have had the vote at the time of Maastricht, Major knew he would lose by a large margin. We would have been out "then".

[oc14]

Originally Posted by Volunteer Soldier

But you didn't know at the time that a Remainer would lead the negotiations with the eurocrats. I feel cheated. How do you feel?

I feel that I'd rather have the negotiations (if there have to be any) were led by someone who represented (and respected) the wishes (of the majority) of those who voted in the referendum and not some europhile lackey.....

Out means out - walk away now, no divorce payment, no more contributions to the Euro super state

[Alex Rice]

As a yaapie from down South I probably shouldn't comment, but I will .
In my opinion, Theresa May has taken on a thankless task and she's damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. From the debates I've watched on Sky, I just get the impression the opposition is doing it damnedest to bring down the government, and the PM is not getting the support from parliament that she would need to be successful. If they all stood together for once like they did during the wars, maybe they'd have a solution by now.

[magpie]

Just my opinion but it should have been a multi party committee and not just left to the Conservatives to sort out, also everyone should have been behind and doing their best to sort this out and not turning it to a contest to kick the feet from underneath everyone else, I think the whole process has been an example of how not to do something to the rest of the world.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by magpie

Just my opinion but it should have been a multi party committee and not just left to the Conservatives to sort out, also everyone should have been behind and doing their best to sort this out and not turning it to a contest to kick the feet from underneath everyone else, I think the whole process has been an example of how not to do something to the rest of the world.

100% ! Its "deliberately" turned into a sh1t show.

[grenadierguardsman]

Originally Posted by magpie

Just my opinion but it should have been a multi party committee and not just left to the Conservatives to sort out, also everyone should have been behind and doing their best to sort this out and not turning it to a contest to kick the feet from underneath everyone else, I think the whole process has been an example of how not to do something to the rest of the world.

Yes i have to agree with you there.
Andy

[Charliedog012012]

I live in a constituency which overwhelmingly voted to leave. Our MP has voted against his own constituents wishes on every occasion and not once has he contacted us by visit, open meeting, newsletter etc. Many people do not know who what he looks like or even know his name. Whatever the result of the referendum, the people’s choice should be respected by all political parties. I fear that the people have been ignored and the result is politicians enhancing their careers with no concern for anyone but themselves. I do not see any point in voting anymore. I would go as far as to say I fear democracy is dead and will remain so until the politicians move outside of the ‘Westminster bubble’.

[BWEF]

Originally Posted by High Wood

Typical Remainer failure to see the bigger picture. Both riots have exactly the same cause, the imposition of taxes by the ruling classes on those who are least able to afford it.

At one time the ruling classes needed the peasants to toil in their fields, serve at their tables and fight their battles as they took other’s land and property. When Western Europe, particularly the British Isles, industrialised, the ruling glasses needed to educate the masses to operate machinery in their factories. But education is a two-edged sword and can be a very dangerous thing in the wrong hands, as individuals may begin to think for themselves and work out who is really pulling the strings. Such people are usually bought off by the system by being given positions of power and influence within the system. Others, who will not be bought, must be demonised and side lined at best or, at worst, eliminated. This is common to all political systems whether they are capitalist or communist.

In a post-industrial age, the ruling classes, and I do not necessarily mean governments, have no need or particular concern for the masses, except as consumers. We are expendable, an inconvenient problem to be side lined with day time television, 24-hour drinking, gambling, online pornography and freely available narcotics, anything to stupefy the masses and maintain control. We have seen iron foundries and steel mills replaced with shiny shopping malls, collieries replaced with garden centres and fishing villages being turned into holiday lets. Governments, even if they wanted to, can do nothing to halt the decline because they are controlled by the big corporations who do not see people, only profit.

Peaceful political change is impossible, especially now that the powers that be have overturned the democratic will of the people, and therefore violent protest is inevitable. If mainstream politicians fail to listen to the people, they will force people to support political extremists. Politics is like a pendulum, the further it wings one way the further it swings back the other, action is met with reaction. The far left creates the far right and the far right creates the far left, feeding off each other’s extremism. We all know where that leads and it isn’t pretty.

Meanwhile, ordinary, decent people are left behind as those various power blocks fight for control, As Joe Strummer said, it makes no difference to the peasants who is riding around in the big, black shiny cars if you remain a peasant.

Once you realise that the ruling classes, whether they be capitalists, communists, fascists or liberal democrats only care about money and power and regard you as peasants at worst and consumers at best, you will see that the whole damn system is rotten to the core. Nobody can stop it as these people love money and they love power, they want more and more and ultimately, they want control. The EU are not the answer, they are part of the problem, they want an end to nation states and control over a larger group of humanity so that they can take on China and or, Russia. We have been here before and again we know how it ends. What is coming will make the Second World War look like a picnic.

One last point, I have noticed a tendency in those who believe that their particular politics have all the answers, to shout down and belittle those who disagree with them. ‘Too thick to know what you voted for’ being an example. If we are too thick it is because we have not been properly educated but then again, they don’t want us to think about the bigger picture. You do not have all the answers, absolutism leads to Armageddon. To those people I would quote John Lennon, You think that you are so clever and classless and free, but you are still f*****g peasants as far as I can see.

I do not claim to have the answers but I think that I have at least worked out the questions.

Yes, you are correct. Both the present day French riots and the Poll Tax riots had exactly the same cause “the imposition of taxes by the ruling classes on those who are least able to afford it.”.

The point you miss it that it was the governments in Paris and in Westminster*that imposed those taxes, and not the EU. How would leaving the EU stop the government of a “free” UK continuing to impose those taxes?

In fact, giving a free hand to Westminster would make things worse in that they could abolish things like rights at work that Brussels insists upon. Austerity will continue for 50 years according to both the OBR and even Rees-Mogg. Hasn’t ten years of austerity been enough for you?

Austerity has hit the poorest British people the hardest, and will continue to do so if we leave the EU. It has now been announced that the life expectancy of the poorest British people has fallen for the first time since 1945. Cut the NHS, cut social care and remove the “safety nets” and the poorest of our fellow Britons die. Do we really want this to not only continue, but get worse?

I agree 100% with what you say about many people being regarded as consumers and little more. However, what can poor people afford to consume, other than the very basics? Leaving the EU will make these people poorer still in that austerity will continue and there will be further cuts to their benefits.

You are also correct in saying that government can do little to halt decline, but I would go further. I would say that a Tory government will not even try. There is an element within the Conservative Party called the European Research Group, who relish the decline.

These are the people that want the insanity of a no deal Brexit, who tried to oust Theresa May as leader of the Conservatives at the start of the week. The ERG is full of people who stand to make a bloody fortune if we leave the EU. Make it at the expense of the lives of the rest of the British people. The ERG see leaving the EU as the chance to out-Thatcher Thatcher. To do all the things that Thatcher couldn’t do because of EU membership.

The worst of these people would like to turn this country into a sweatshop with no rights or benefits, so that people have to work for the bare minimum. This idea has been termed “Singapore-on-Thames”:

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...thy-city-state


It makes sense for the rich to want the country to adopt this model. They stand to make a fortune. It is no accident that Jacob-Rees Mogg’s business is based in Singapore. They are now warning their investors against putting their money into the UK:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...acob-rees-mogg

I would agree with you that there will now be civil unrest whatever happens. I would not be so concerned about the real headbangers who still believe in the fairy tale Brexit, complete with unicorns. If they have not realised by now that the Brexit they wanted can not be done, there is little hope for them. In fact, look how few of them turned out for the recent pro Brexit demonstration.


I would worry more about the thousands of people who stand to lose their jobs as the car firms etc leave. Even more likely as Japan now has a trade deal with the EU. Add thousands of people, in small areas, to the people who are going hungry, and it will be worse than the Poll Tax Riots, and we had a lot more police then.

The real tragedy of this is that the people who have been the worst treated in the last 50 years voted to leave the EU. The only body that has been trying to help them. Remember when the Cornish, for example, who voted leave, asked if Westminster was going to replace the money that the EU was giving Cornwall? The EU was sending money to many of the the poorer areas of the UK, not just Cornwall.

You might say that Westminster will do that instead, but Westminster didn’t do it, which is why Brussels had to step in. It Westminster didn’t do it when they had the money, what chance post any form of Brexit?

As I said in this forum at the time of the result of the referendum what the British, mainly English, people collectively have done is what my old grandma used to call “cutting off your nose to spite your face”.

Quite apart from which, Brexit can not be done without destroying the economy and badly affecting the life chances of the vast majority of British people. Remember when the Brexiteers said the deal would be the easiest in history, they need us more than we need them etc etc ad nauseum? How is that working out for them?

No hard form of Brexit will pass the House of Commons and the ERG bid to oust Theresa May failed. So, she is safe as Tory leader beyond March, and will have to try for the softest Brexit as possible. That is about all that is left, short of a vote of no confidence, a referendum and/or a general election. All the while the world is laughing at us. Here is Hong Kong:

https://www.scmp.com/news/world/euro...-leaders-after

I also agree that the system is rotten to the core, and the Brexit farce has exposed that for all to see. The best hope now is that the UK might manage to stay together and that we have electoral reform. The FPTP system is a gerrymandered farce. There are safe seats that have been held by the same party since, and even before, the electoral reform of 1918. If you are a Progressive voter living in a safe Tory constituency, or a Tory living is a safe Labour constituency, you might as well live in North Korea for all the chance you have of getting an MP who represents your views.

My own view is that we should adopt the system of voting that has been used for EU elections. Of course this will lead to coalitions and compromise, but it is far better than one half of the country riding rough shod over the other. PR allowed UKIP to win 24 seats in the European Parliament. FPTP let them have one at Westminster, and even he was a Tory renegade who spent most of his time at Westminster fighting with Nigel Farage.

I have to suggest that my idea for a way forward Trumps, no pun intended, yours. I still don’t get this “democratic will of the people” being overturned thing. Our MPs are representatives and not delegates. They are supposedly at Westminster to represent their electorate by voting in the way that they think best.

Your line of argument here would only work if our MPs were delegates, having been sent to Westminster to vote the way they are told. This is another absurdity of Brexit. Like “taking back control” and then attacking the judiciary for following British laws and attacking the House of Lords for doing their job.

Almost as silly as complaining about “non elected bureaucrats” when all the time they knew that the House of Lords is not elected, and neither is the Queen. When did anybody here ever vote for a senior civil servant? Other than the House of Commons it is ALL non elected bureacrats, and the way that the lower house is elected would not stand up to any sort of scrutiny.

To me, all that happened was that a half wit of a Prime Minister, a man who never obtained a job on merit in all his life, thought that he could silence an internal dispute within the Tory Party, by promising a referendum on Europe. Of course, he was not expecting an outright win, expected to be saying: “I would have done it, but the Liberal-Democrats won’t let me.”

You could be right about the end of nation states, including the end of the UK, both in or out of the EU. However, it is better to be in the EU than on our own facing such a future.

On our own who are we going to trade with? What are we going to make, who is going to make it, where are we going to make it, and who in going to buy it. More importantly, how are we going to undercut China, India et al?

Have you noticed how well our prospective future trade talks have been going? Theresa May put access to the NHS, lowering of food standards and allowing things like Fracking on the table with America. Also, who can trust somebody like Trump anyway?

India is not interested in any deal that does not include increased Indian immigration to the UK.

Canada, and now Japan, have free trade deals with the EU and Australia and New Zealand are working on them too:

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-...ade-agreement/

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-...ade-agreement/

I wouldn’t say that Brexiteers are ‘Too thick to know what you voted for’. I would say that they were lied to and promised the impossible. Take a look at who funded the whole thing too. What does the average Briton who has been neglected and ripped off for half a century have in common with the “non doms“, and tax evaders?

I do not blame people for voting leave, but I do question the fact that, after well over two years, they refuse to accept that they will not get what they think they vote for. For some, Brexit has become a faith based idea, almost like a religion.

However, short of a time machine it will not work, even if they could get it through Parliament. Remember too that whatever happens this does not end at the end of March.2019 There will be years of negotiations ahead.