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  #1  
Old 14-09-18, 08:32 PM
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Default rose button species (Intelligence Corps, Lord Lieutenant of County of England, ...)

A new thread for the rose buttons discussed under Yeomanry buttons:

1. The Lord Lieutenant of County of England button
British Buttons (Dennis G. Blair) shows a silver one without rim (DB_R07)

2. The crossbreed

3. Intelligence Corps
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1.Lord_Lieutenant_England.jpg (107.8 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg 2.Rose_crossbreed.jpg (101.2 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg 3.Intelligence_Corps.jpg (103.9 KB, 12 views)
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  #2  
Old 14-09-18, 08:35 PM
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I note that St Eds Crown Int Corps blazer buttons with the rose sepal to the top are available, definitely Int Corps as they hear the cap badge design.
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  #3  
Old 14-09-18, 08:41 PM
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I have the crossbreed with the following backmarks:
- Pitt & Co Maddox St. London
- Pitt & Co, 31 Maddox St. London W

The Intelligence Corps buttons:
- Buttons Limited, Birmingham
- Buttons Ltd B'ham <crossed swords>
- Firmin, London
- Gaunt, London
- J.R. Gaunt & Son Ltd, London Engd
-J.R. Gaunt & Son, London
- Pitt & Co Maddox St. London

My suggestion: Crossbreed could be made by Pitt for the Intelligence Corps using the Lieutenant of County button as an example. After a while they found out and cut a new die. Another option is that they had the die as shown by Blair, did not check twice and used it for making gilt Intelligence Corps buttons.
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  #4  
Old 14-09-18, 09:46 PM
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Hi Gents,

I'm not sure if it fits in with this discussion so forgive if I'm off base but I do have a few similar 'rose' type buttons in m militia collection.

Here is one to the 2nd West York Militia, circa 1830. If nothing else it highlights how old the concept is.

Cheers,

Roy
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File Type: jpg IMG_0006.jpg (44.9 KB, 10 views)
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Last edited by Roy; 14-09-18 at 09:56 PM.
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  #5  
Old 14-09-18, 09:52 PM
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I wonder if we need to take this further?

Was the period of wear for the Intelligence Corps with a Kings Crowns just 1940 to 1952?

Did other ranks of the Intelligence Corps wear Corps buttons, SD should have been replaced by BD in 1940 but what of the great coat, would they have worn GS buttons? Answering these questions could point to non Officer quality buttons being something other than Intelligence Corps?

Rob
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  #6  
Old 15-09-18, 07:50 AM
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As an aside to the thread, I have a few "Intelligence Corps" buttons that have not very intelligently had their shanks removed by being unceremoniously pulled out, hence leaving gaping ragged holes in the button backs. I wonder what pressing need the boffins (or other unknown vandals) had to acquire small brass button loops!

GTB
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  #7  
Old 15-09-18, 08:36 AM
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Buttons just ripped off garments being scrapped because it's easier to do that than snip them off?
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  #8  
Old 15-09-18, 09:27 AM
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I'm really not sure that there is any great significance to the design or orientation of the rose - ie two petals to the top (as per btns photo number 2 in post 1 above) or one petal to the top (his photo number 3).

Some while ago Ian Scott produced for 'Button Lines' (Journal of the British Button Society), an excellent list of some variations to be found in buttons for Line Infantry Regiments. He noted that for the Royal Fusiliers and the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry there were variants with the rose in different positions (as per btns photos 2 and 3). If this happened to these buttons I can see no reason why the same should not have happened to buttons for the Intelligence Corps. Even the same maker may have used different dies at different times made by different people who had different ideas about how a rose should look.

I still firmly believe that the problem here is the misidentification by Howard in his original book. This error has been repeated so often, by so many well respected militaria dealers on their lists and on ebay that it has now almost become fact - any button with a crown over a rose is Yorkshire Yeomanry, so much more exciting than Intelligence Corps!

A Lord Lieutenant's pattern KC button, silver plated, mounted design, was sold recently by a well known militaria dealer on his website as an officers' mounted button for the Yorkshire Dragoons. A similar brass, die-struck version is also being sold by an equally respected dealer as Yorkshire Dragoons.

If someone can produce one of these buttons (but not a Lord Lieutenant's example, obviously) with a Jennens backmark (or similar) which would clearly pre-date 1940 then I might be able to start convincing myself that the button is for something else other than the Intelligence Corps. I would still like to see some evidence before identifying it as specifically Yorkshire Yeomanry related though!

Roger
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Old 15-09-18, 11:42 AM
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May I ask again, what design was used by Int Corps in WW1 (1914 onwards).

GTB
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  #10  
Old 15-09-18, 01:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GTB View Post
May I ask again, what design was used by Int Corps in WW1 (1914 onwards).

GTB
GTB,
An ad hoc 'Intelligence Corps' was formed for WW1 service and existed until 1929. It was reformed in 1940.

In that first period there was no specific Intelligence Corps cap badge, collar badge or buttons. It is likely that officers wore their Regimental insignia or the Royal Arms of the General List. Other ranks would again have worn their own Regimental badges or that of the Royal Fusiliers under cover of which a 10th (Intelligence Battalion) was raised.

The King's crown over a rose resting on laurels badge was not introduced until formation of the Intelligence Corps in July 1940 so I cannot see a reason for KC over crown buttons to be connected with the Corps before that date.

Tim
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  #11  
Old 15-09-18, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cribyn View Post
I'm really not sure that there is any great significance to the design or orientation of the rose - ie two petals to the top (as per btns photo number 2 in post 1 above) or one petal to the top (his photo number 3).

Some while ago Ian Scott produced for 'Button Lines' (Journal of the British Button Society), an excellent list of some variations to be found in buttons for Line Infantry Regiments. He noted that for the Royal Fusiliers and the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry there were variants with the rose in different positions (as per btns photos 2 and 3). If this happened to these buttons I can see no reason why the same should not have happened to buttons for the Intelligence Corps. Even the same maker may have used different dies at different times made by different people who had different ideas about how a rose should look.

I still firmly believe that the problem here is the misidentification by Howard in his original book. This error has been repeated so often, by so many well respected militaria dealers on their lists and on ebay that it has now almost become fact - any button with a crown over a rose is Yorkshire Yeomanry, so much more exciting than Intelligence Corps!

A Lord Lieutenant's pattern KC button, silver plated, mounted design, was sold recently by a well known militaria dealer on his website as an officers' mounted button for the Yorkshire Dragoons. A similar brass, die-struck version is also being sold by an equally respected dealer as Yorkshire Dragoons.

If someone can produce one of these buttons (but not a Lord Lieutenant's example, obviously) with a Jennens backmark (or similar) which would clearly pre-date 1940 then I might be able to start convincing myself that the button is for something else other than the Intelligence Corps. I would still like to see some evidence before identifying it as specifically Yorkshire Yeomanry related though!

Roger

My brass example - as shown in the album - is Firmin so does not meet the "Jennens or similar" criterion. I shall leave the pictures in the album for the time being.

Chris
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  #12  
Old 15-09-18, 05:24 PM
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I have deleted the wm Lieutenant of County button from the album.

Chris
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