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  #16  
Old 18-09-12, 12:09 AM
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Hi All,

Many thanks for all your opinions and experiences recently...I find it fascinating how the hobby evolves and in particular what the drivers of those changes are.

Also....many thanks for the laugh/digression about how to pronounce Etobicoke.

Jaime...yep that was me who picked up the CD of David's Badge work. I am very impressed with the contents and recommend it as a great reference piece for Badges current prices/scarcity/rarity. Sorry I did not get a chance to have a better chat but it was virtually at the close when I dropped by your table...next show I promise to more formally/properly introduce myself. P.S. Glad you had a good show...you may have been one of the few who did from my observations/conversations.

Mike
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  #17  
Old 18-09-12, 12:04 PM
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I did my usual first sweep of all the easily navigated aisles/tables to make a mental note of what I may be interested in. I identified a couple small pieces (Helmet display stand/Book) to go back and perhaps pick up...unfortunately due to a number of great long conversations when I returned those pieces were gone.

Overall the Etobicoke Show appeared not too good for the Sellers, in fact having talked with a number of them they were experiencing a dramatic drop in the prices they were being offered for their items. Each chalked it up to a softening overall in the field of Militaria collecting as a result of fears in the general economy. One dealer even lamented about selling a rare Militia badge
I am always remiss to make judgements based upon a few conversations and as such I would be interested to hear what others are noticing…a few questions come to mind: Are we witnessing a recession, no recession or a natural correction in prices? Are all items from the common to rare affected? Are there any significant demographic shifts happening? Are more items being acquired in private transactions/auctions versus the shows?

Mike
Etobicoke & Markham are the best shows in the Southern ON area by far,
if you are serious about collecting you attend these shows. Ottawa in the spring & fall is also a good well attended show.

& I'm probably going toget into trouble giving my opinions, but I'll say it anyway ------

There are always bargains to be had at shows - they are there - its just a matter of looking.
Vendors ALWAYS bitch & complain about prices - its the nature of the 'beast' - just like Canadians are always bitching about the weather - thats why some go south in winter!

The problem is that some vendors have titems so ridiculously overpriced (or perhaps a better word might be unrealistically priced) then the
item(s) dont sell, either for that reason &/or some fellows are reluctant to haggle or make offers.
Any specialist collector knows his/her area & knows what the items they have interest in should be selling for.

I have had a table at various shows for 30 + yrs, I see them all, most collectors will pay what you have onan item IF ITS REASONABLY priced to the buyer!
(of course saying that, whats reasonable to collector X might not be to collector Y)

Most of my sales (approx 60%) are for what I have on the item, about 40% of my sales are on offers.
I have no problem at all with a collector making an offer - I do it all the time -its expected at shows - I know what I want to pay for something I want - if its reasonable, I'm in - if its close to what I want to pay then I make an offer - BUT if the item is ridiculously overpriced I dont even bother to make an offer. I'm not going to stand there & argue with a vendor about a price!
I have neither the desire, the time, nor the patience for that.
You CANNOT change fully formed attiutudes!!!

So some vendors then have no cause really for complaint - you price an item reasonably or to sell & it will sell. I dont have a lot of sympathy for vendors who deliberately overprice & dont wish to deal, & there are a few of them (couple well known, one missing Sat) at these shows.

RCN Bryan
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  #18  
Old 18-09-12, 01:05 PM
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Good Morning Gentlemen.....

Maybe it is also the way that the economy is going..... We had a show here in Calgary this last weekend and it was one of the best one day shows that I have ever attended..... All the dealers around me and myself of course had a fantastic day..... I am afraid that I did not find anything that would enhance my collection but I did get a very nice 1863 rifle.....

Mike
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  #19  
Old 18-09-12, 02:54 PM
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Not so sure that the observations can all be attributed to this economy. The demographics of collecting may have more to do with the situation than economic forces. How many younger/new collectors were there at the shows? One can only sell so many medical corps or service corps badges (or the equivalent in Nazi material eg some of the tinnies or more common breast badges), before an individual has what is needed for their collection. They then move into the next tier or maybe their interest drops off... or the prices asked end their collecting. And Canadian badge collecting is by far defined by the First and Second World Wars. Most collectors do up some sort of order of battle for those conflicts or a lineage for their particular regiments.This certainly helps explain the firm demand for more rare material. Advanced collectors after fewer items...results in a strong market for the scarce material.
I am not sure how the supply and demand curve works for some badges. Eg there are many VIII Recce badges around, yet their prices have sky-rocketed beyond similarly scarce badges. Market manipulation? Yet a Garrison Bn badge has not had a bite when listed at about $3000.
A bit of perspective. Minimum wage is about $11 in Ontario. To buy a scarcer cap badge, say a $40 one, the individual has to work over four hours. To drop $200 on a scarce badge is a significant outlay. Obviously many collectors make a lot more than minimum wage, but the cost of militaria in time worked is the equation. To make collecting a long term enterprise, the badges have to remain within reach of newer collectors. Perhaps the frenzy of bidding on CEF badges last fall was the peak for this particular cycle.
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  #20  
Old 18-09-12, 03:40 PM
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How does one acquire this forum badge? I'd love to meet up with forum members at shows, etc.
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  #21  
Old 18-09-12, 08:44 PM
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Well said,couldn't agree more with RCN Bryan and Bill A
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  #22  
Old 18-09-12, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill A View Post
Not so sure that the observations can all be attributed to this economy. The demographics of collecting may have more to do with the situation than economic forces. How many younger/new collectors were there at the shows? Perhaps the frenzy of bidding on CEF badges last fall was the peak for this particular cycle.

Bill I have found that if serious collector wants something bad enough to fill a long standing gap in his collection, he will go for it even if he has to overpay for it.
If I see a badge/medal that I know is rare & I want it I will in all probability overpay for it.
I did that earlier this summer with a very rare medal (to a Canadian) that came my way. I wont see one of these again in my lifetime. I also had a medal re- unite couple yrs back (again a rare one & another Canadian), & yes I overpaid for that one too - but it comes down to:
how badly do I want it?
& can I afford NOT to miss it?


Your 2nd point - younger collectors - I see a few of them at my table now & then, but yes they are somewhat scarce on the ground, so I do all I can to encourage a newbie. But many have told me the pricey & scarcer badges etc are beyond them.

CEF - I cannot comment on as I dont collect them & am not knowledgable enough to make an opinion, but I expect they are the same as medals - lots of scarce & rarely seen ones!

RCN Bryan
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  #23  
Old 18-09-12, 09:48 PM
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Bill I have found that if serious collector wants something bad enough to fill a long standing gap in his collection, he will go for it even if he has to overpay for it.
If I see a badge/medal that I know is rare & I want it I will in all probability overpay for it.
I did that earlier this summer with a very rare medal (to a Canadian) that came my way. I wont see one of these again in my lifetime. I also had a medal re- unite couple yrs back (again a rare one & another Canadian), & yes I overpaid for that one too - but it comes down to:
how badly do I want it?
& can I afford NOT to miss it?


Your 2nd point - younger collectors - I see a few of them at my table now & then, but yes they are somewhat scarce on the ground, so I do all I can to encourage a newbie. But many have told me the pricey & scarcer badges etc are beyond them.

CEF - I cannot comment on as I dont collect them & am not knowledgable enough to make an opinion, but I expect they are the same as medals - lots of scarce & rarely seen ones!

RCN Bryan
Bryan, you mentioned a very important point, that I think may get overlooked, so I will say it again.... Young Collectors, or New Collectors are quite shocked at the higher priced items. This I know as I attended this show with one of my sons freinds. This fellow is interested in militaria (my fault) and he wanted to check out a show atmosphere.

This show I was targeting medals more than badges (long story). This young fellow was shocked at the prices marked on some of the medals. Lack of knowledge mostly. I found them to be rather reasonable and tried to explain to him what he was looking at.

A few older Victorian medals with Gallantry awards had him baffled. After I explained it all he understood. Then we came across a table where we say a CVSM with O/S bar, listed at $145.00. On the same table there was a Canadian issue War Medal and a Defence Medal listed at over $120.00 each... I could not explain those prices other than crazy.

He is certainly keen on starting to collect so soon enough I get him started with a few medals surplus to my needs, and of course an Irish Regiment of Canada WWII ORs cap badge.

One thing I have never been crazy about is the trend I have been seeing of the sellers NOT pricing their offerings. I mean, no prices on anything. I cannot gauge a sellers expectations on something if I cannot see any of his prices. I know I sometimes pass by a deal but I am not really in the habit of asking... I suppose it comes from an incident when I was young, where a seller told me if I had to ask, I could not afford it.

I have to say I did enjoy this latest show, and I was very happy with my purchases. I did miss Louis Grimshaw, Tanya, Bert Bell, and Rob Lowe.
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  #24  
Old 19-09-12, 09:26 AM
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How much show attendance or sales are lost to the internet? It was not all that long ago where you had to leave the house to find items for your collection. Now much of it can be done on line.
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  #25  
Old 19-09-12, 12:00 PM
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I believe the majority of the badge shopping and sales will be done online.Badge shows which in the past were the major gathering place for collectors are still important today for the ability to take your traders and see if you can make a deal. This is lots of fun and gives you interaction with dealers you might not get a chance to meet.
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  #26  
Old 19-09-12, 12:42 PM
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I believe the majority of the badge shopping and sales will be done online.Badge shows which in the past were the major gathering place for collectors are still important today for the ability to take your traders and see if you can make a deal. This is lots of fun and gives you interaction with dealers you might not get a chance to meet.
Agree! The shows give the interaction with other collectors & vendors, & best of all the making of the deal. Thats what I live for!

The internet is a great source but you cant get that rush on the internet!

RCN Bryan
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  #27  
Old 19-09-12, 02:08 PM
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I had the same thought as Jim and Ed after I posted. Online collecting is a major trend. If one reviews ebay (and other) online auctions, the amount of common material is phenominal. Scarcer material is seldom seen, and auction results for the scarce material are inconsistent. (An analysis of results from Davis Soltess' new price guide clearly shows some of these patterns.) A shrewd beginner can put together an inexpensive collection through buying online, but at some point the crux comes. Either the scarce stuff goes for crazy amounts, (again, the VIII Recce badges have more than doubled in prices realized over about a year), or the material is simlpy not offered online. Establishing good relations with dealers can result with them thinking of you when certain material comes along. THAT doesn't happen online.
And there is the perennial problem of fakes and forgeries. Canadian badges have not had the attention the Brit and German stuff has, but there are substantial numbers of questionable Canadian insignia being offered online. It amazes me the number of buyers who purchase these questionable items. (And some dealers who offer them...) Hands on examination, at shows, can surely combat the spread of fakes. Shows offer far more opportunity for education than online buying.
Shows certainly have their place, and hopefully will continue to fill that need. There is nothing like the person to person contact. But more importantly, from a collecting perspective, there is nothing like seeing and handling the real thing to get a feel for the hobby.
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  #28  
Old 19-09-12, 09:13 PM
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There are a couple of things to add to the online/show debate.

The first, especially out here in Calgary at least, is that even for the major Easter show & sale, dealer offerings can be pretty slim pickings, or consist of the same old same old. I don't know how many times I've had major dealers say something along the lines of: "I didn't really bring a lot of badges out, because I didn't know what would sell."

How the heck can you tell what will sell unless you bring it with you? I couldn't beg a badge I really wanted at that last Calgary show.

To compound the issue, the dealers all do walkabouts prior to the doors opening and I get a lot of "Oh, I had one but X grabbed it this morning before we opened."

Two years ago the Calgary show had a big influx of new (at least to this venue) dealers and it was a great money-parter. Last year there were even less vendors than previous years, as at least 3 'usuals' and all but one of the new crop failed to appear.

The local community shows & sales are even worse — same six or eight guys, same 30 badges I've seen for the last three years.

So, online buying at least has product, albeit very intermittent for scarcer badges.

Personally, I'd still prefer to handle & haggle. But if I went to Safeway or Sobeys and all they had were the same three oranges day after day, I'd probably be mail-ordering citrus too.

For new collectors, I think the best deal for them is mail auctions like Marways, Jeffrey Hoare, etc. There are loads of group lots of more common badges offered, ranging from a few badges to a dozen or more badges per lot, and their 'per badge' price will still beat eBay hands down, even with buyer premiums.

That's a hint for online dealers or eBayers. Put together group lots (brigades, divisions, geographic areas), give up the fantasy of $15 PWOR badges and cut the new guys some slack.
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  #29  
Old 19-09-12, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jim a View Post
I believe the majority of the badge shopping and sales will be done online.Badge shows which in the past were the major gathering place for collectors are still important today for the ability to take your traders and see if you can make a deal. This is lots of fun and gives you interaction with dealers you might not get a chance to meet.
I think that the problem with the new collectors is that they are of the 'internet generation', they only know how to go online and Google. When I tell my son of how we used to get things done pre 1990s, pre mp3/dvd/mobile phone, he just looks at me like I'm mad
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  #30  
Old 20-09-12, 03:58 AM
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Dont know why the 8th recce badges skyrocketed in price but they seem to have stayed there. Would have thought they would come down a bit after the bidders driving the price up acquired a badge.
I have some badges in my collection that I try to "upgrade". I dont think they are fakes just cheaper wartime stampings. I look for the older and heavier badges. Recently saw a couple on e-bay but no pics of the reverse. Asking for a pic was met with silence so he still owns them. At least at the show you get to hold and examine closely but I have got some very nice ones on e-bay as well. Hope to make the Ottawa show. Cheers Brian
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