9th Btn Tank Corps arm badge

[DaveA]

Hi,

At the request of another member I am posting a photo of the arm badge of the 9th Battalion, Tank Corps from my grandfathers WW1 service tunic. He was commissioned into the Tank Corps from the Artists Rifles in March 1918 and he wore this tunic from then until he was demobilised in early 1919. He was awarded the MC in November 1918 for his role as the battalion Reconnaissance Officer at the Battle of the Mormal Forest on the 4th November 1918, with the actual award being published in March 1919 so I can confidently date this tunic to this period. All the badges on the tunic are original to the period. I received the tunic and medals etc in 1983 and the tunic is "as is".

The gilt brass sleeve badge which was worn on the upper left sleeve is the badge of the French 3rd Infantry Division and was uniquely awarded to the 9th Battalion Tank Corps for assistance rendered during the Battle of Moreul in July 1918. It is secured to the tunic by two lugs through a brass backing plate.

I have also attached a photo showing the shoulder epaulette with 9th Battalion colour flash under the pip, collar dog and MC riband.

regards

DaveA

[fearnaught]

Hi Dave, great images. Can I be cheeky and ask for an image of the tank arm badge? All the best and thanks for posting images, Mike

[DaveA]

Hi Mike,

No worries. The Tank Corps qualification badge on the upper right sleeve is of white cotton with black cotton outlines. The barrel of the 6 pdr has unfortunately been worn off. I have also attached a photo of the front of the tunic and photos of his cap badge, front and rear.

regards

Dave

[1stTankie]

Hi Dave

Good to have you back on the Forum.

Thank you for posting the photographs of your grandfather's tunic and especially the Arm badge.

I think there could have been three variations of this badge:

Badge A. I have no photograph so this is an unsound assumption but this could have been the badge handed to 9RTR by the French at the time, i.e. the one worn by the 3rd French Infantry Division in 1919.

Badge B. It could be that this one is the badge awarded by the French at the time i.e. Badge A. It is certainly the badge that appears in the regimental history. Alternatively it could be the British manufactured version. It comes with its own backplate. I would be interested to know if your grandfather's has one similar.

Badge C. This one is the one worn on BD by the reformed 9RTR in WW2.
This started at Gateshead in 1940 and is detailed in Peter Beale's book "Tank Tracks" Sgt Jim Proctor is shown wearing it on page 125.

Best wishes

Gordon

[Frank Kelley]

Superb! just superb, wonderful tunic, you are very lucky indeed!

Originally Posted by DaveA

Hi,

At the request of another member I am posting a photo of the arm badge of the 9th Battalion, Tank Corps from my grandfathers WW1 service tunic. He was commissioned into the Tank Corps from the Artists Rifles in March 1918 and he wore this tunic from then until he was demobilised in early 1919. He was awarded the MC in November 1918 for his role as the battalion Reconnaissance Officer at the Battle of the Mormal Forest on the 4th November 1918, with the actual award being published in March 1919 so I can confidently date this tunic to this period. All the badges on the tunic are original to the period. I received the tunic and medals etc in 1983 and the tunic is "as is".

The gilt brass sleeve badge which was worn on the upper left sleeve is the badge of the French 3rd Infantry Division and was uniquely awarded to the 9th Battalion Tank Corps for assistance rendered during the Battle of Moreul in July 1918. It is secured to the tunic by two lugs through a brass backing plate.

I have also attached a photo showing the shoulder epaulette with 9th Battalion colour flash under the pip, collar dog and MC riband.

regards

DaveA

[Mike Jackson]

I am assured that this is the original French 3rd Infantry Division badge - it was sewn to the uniform - hence the hole at 12 o'clock:
3 Di 1918 badge.jpg

[1stTankie]

Hi Mike

Thank you, most interesting.
This at least confirms my thoughts that there was an "original" French version, i.e. Badge A, which initially had been an unsound assumption. As it is not the same striking as the one worn by Dave's grandfather it doesn't tell us whether or not the French handed over enough for everyone to wear at the time or merely conferred the honour on the 9th Bn RTC at the time.
There are therefore three variations of the WW1 version of which it would seem that Badges A and B have very firm provenance. Having said that I have no reason to doubt the authenticity of my Badge C.
Just an aside; I assume that Badge A was secured to the tunic by more than just one bit of stitching, presumably in the manner I suggested earlier, along the bottom.
Last thought for now...did the French wear it in the same place on the upper left arm or did we put it there to "balance up" the Tank Arm Badge?

Best wishes

Gordon

[fearnaught]

Hi Dave, thank you for the images with the bonus of the cap badge. Was there a manufacturer's name on the badge? I only have the other ranks version so don't have a name to go with it. Thanks again for the images, great to see, Mike

[DaveA]

Hi, The badge on my grandfathers tunic is secured by two lugs on an oval brass backing plate very similar to the one in the photos provided by 1st Tankie, however the one in grandad's tunic does not have the small tongue on the bottom of it, so I presume this was a generic brass plate. There is then a split pin securing the lugs. The lugs appear to be very "British" so I presume this was a British manufacture badge or one made in theatre to British design specifications by a French manufacturer. Another interesting object I acquired along with his British award MC and group was a French manufactured MC marked with the French "Boars head" silver mark and the lozenge for Andre Chabillon which apparently was quite correct for a WW1 period manufactured "walking out" replica made in France. It is indistinguishable from the British original apart from being slightly thinner and the French proof marks. Is it not possible that the local French manufacturers also supplied the initial issue of sleeve badges of a sew on type?

Another small observation regarding the badges in the photos supplied by Gordon, the lugs on my grandad's badge appear to be placed on the rim of the badge like the second version, not towards the centre as in the first badge. The badge is secured at the rim on either side meaning that lugs are placed at the edge of the badge. These may just be minor variations by a number of manufacturers.

As far as the cap badge goes, there is no name on the rear of it, but the collar badges have the name of Gaunt on the rear. They seem to have the same patina and colour so they all may have come from the same manufacturer.


regards

Dave

[rac1944]

Hi,
I think 1stTankie has hit the nail on the head with the three badge descriptions. It seems highly logical that there is a 'Badge A', the original French issue and 'Badge B' is one manufactured by the British for the 9th Bn. A new variation was produced for WWII as 'Badge C'.
Whether this is 'Badge A' or 'B' I really don't know but is great evidence for the WWI variety - http://www.tankmuseum.org/ixbin/inde...4&_IXMENU_=top.

I've also dug around and found evidence to back up 'Badge C's' different design, the main differences appear to be the bottom of the flames on 'Badge B' have little 'supports' whereas 'Badge C' has none but a distinct gap. 'Badge C' touches the buckle at the bottom, whereas 'Badge B' again has a 'support'. (Although see 'Cii' below) And 'Badge C's' belt-end after the buckle is more of a teardrop design than 'Badge B'. 9RTR's little memorial booklet published just after the war has a 'Badge C' design drawn on the cover.9RTR_MemorialBooklet_Image.jpg

Trevor Greenwood served in 9RTR and his excellent diary has been republished in association with the IWM under the title D-Day to Victory - The Diaries of a British Tank Commander. His family have created a web site and placed certain info on there including some more photos - http://trevorgreenwood.co.uk/tg/.

The family have kindly agreed for some photos to be posted here - a) an interesting pic of the rear of the Churchill's turret backing up the no 'support' design for 'Badge C'. b) the other one is from August 1945 when Trevor Greenwood and his mates were messing about with photography, not a crystal clear photo but again shows the design for 'Badge C'......BUT...this one appears to have a 'support' between the 'grenade' of the flame and the buckle - 'Badge Cii'??
9RTR_Paris1945_QSFonTurret.jpgT_Greenwood9RTR_Gummer4aAug45.jpg

Here are two badges in my collection, wasn't really sure what was what until I read this thread so thanks for the info guys. The main difference (hope not danger!) on my 'Badge C' is its pressed back rather than solid back. Hopefully both solid and pressed are right, there were a lot of men passing through 9RTR throughout WWII so I'm guessing it's not unreasonable that more than one manufacturer made them??
BadgeTypeB_Front.JPG BadgeTypeB_Rear.JPG BadgeTypeC_Front.JPG BadgeTypeC_Rear.JPG

Does anyone know any French collectors who might be able to provide further evidence for 'Badge A'?

Cheers
John

[badjez]

For the sake of completeness, here is the original award deatail


31.12.29. Army Order 244: Army Council approved of publication of Citation which had appeared in General Order No83 by the General Officer Commanding 1st French Army, on 15.08.18. on behalf of 9 Bn, Tank Corps.

'In the actions of the 23rd July, 1918, under the experienced and able command of its Commander, Lieut-Colonel Woods, rendered most effective assistance to a French Division, and by its bravery, boldness and fighting spirit, combined with its high standard of training, set an example which aroused the enthusiastic admiration of its French Comrades.
GHQ 15th August 1918.
Le General de Division Debeney,
Commanding 1st Army.'

Stephen.