Early-1920s Marines

[Guzzman]

Thanks for the replies everyone.

Don't think its the Boer War as the rifle used then was the Magazine Lee-Enfield. These men appear to be carrying the snub-nosed Short Magazine Lee-Enfield which didn't enter service until 1st January 1904 - too late for the Boer War.

I hadn't considered Bisley. Thats a good idea. They could possibly be a shooting team.

Leigh - still feeling guilty at seeming so dismissive! Really didn't mean to be. And your right about the badges on the hats. Some seem to be wearing them on the side and some on the front - and different sides of the hat appear to be pinned up according to taste!

They appear to be wearing what is basically their 'working dress' when afloat, consisting of a dark blue tunic and white trousers instead of blue. The 'working' tunic at the time of the Boer War had red embroidered bugle horns on their collars. The undress tunics worn at the beginning of WW1 had brass globe and laurel badges - which is what the men here appear to be wearing.

The bandoliers might suggest that they were mounted but they could just be a convenient way to carry extra ammunition. The marines of the Royal Marine Brigade at Ostend in 1914 were issued with canvas bandoliers slung over the shoulder so that they could carry 'extra' extra ammunition.

The background to the picture doesn't help either! It appears almost totally barren, without even a tree. This strengthens the argument for it being South Africa. And Marines from HM Ships Doris, Powerful and Monarch did serve as escort to four 12-pounder guns manned by the Naval Brigade. Broad brimmed hats could have been obtained locally which would account for them being non-standard issue. But then there is the problem of them seeming to carry rifles which didn't enter service until 1904.

I would really love the picture to have been taken during the Boer War - it would make it the oldest photographic image in my RM collection - but I want to be sure before I give it that title!

Thanks for all contributions - they certainly encourage thought!

Pete

[Guzzman]

John

I'll check through all the other photos and see if any of them have your father's name on the back. Most of them appear to date from approximately the same period and the majority of them have names on. Can't promise anything though!

Was it the third of the squad photos you were referring too? If you like I can get an enlarged copy for you and send it to you. You can always pm me with your address if you want me to do that.

Pete

[johnG]

Thanks Pete, that is very kind of you, but having used a better magnifying glass I think I was mistaken, just a similarity and i guess many such photo's were taken of such groups.
I guess I just wanted him to be in that photo and went looking for a likeness.

Best wishes,

John

[Ray6930]

Afternoon Pete
Sorry for the delay - bloody computers!

The query on the collar badge was prompted because (as a general rule) only Officer collars end in the single leaf and other ranks/NCOs in the double leaf.

It looked like a single leaf and I wonder if anyone with better knowledge than I have might know of a period when the single point was used by other than officers.
Not the best populated on the historical site but this is the link to the collar badge section
http://www.rmhistorical.com/images/Collar%20Badges.pdf

The cap in that picture is interesting too. I haven't seen one with the red backing and white top before - but then this is a colour picture and so a rarity in being able to discern that point.

In respect of the background in the mystery hat picture - could it in fact be a range?
Ray

[Guzzman]

Hello Ray

Many thanks for enlightening me! A very interesting point (no pun intended!). It will be interesting to see if anyone else has any further information.

Having a coloured image does make a difference doesn't it? We get so used to seeing everything in black and white. I guess we must miss quite a few details!

Re the mystery picture. That they are on a range is a good suggestion. It would fit in well with the earlier suggestion that they might be a shooting team.

Pete

[Alex Rice]

Thanks for showing the photos. This may be a silly question but none of the men have any WWI ribbons on their tunics, so are these all photos of new recruits? Maybe in training?
Thanks, cheers,
Alex

[grumpy]

A question from a RM/RN novice ............

a fair number of the groups show two styles of headdress. I know that RM retained the Brodrick long after the army abandoned it, but am I to infer that two types of hat co-existed over a period of years? And if so, was one for the frock and one for the tunic?

[Arnhemjim]

Hello Pete,
As has already been cited, in 1902 a new pattern of cap, named after the then Secretary of State for War, St. John Brodrick, was introduced into the British Army. The “Broderick” was also introduced into the Royal Marines at the same time. It was very shortly proven universally unpopular, was phased out by the Army by 1907, however lingered on enduring a painful death with the Royal Marines until 1922. Based on the cap’s life span of twenty years you can at least narrow the date of any photograph of personnel wearing it to that period.
Hope this info proves helpful.
Arnhem Jim
Arizona Territory

[grumpy]

Jim, thank you. Yes, it was knowing the longevity of the Brodrick that made me curious about the variety of headwear in posed groups.

[Guzzman]

Hi everyone

Excuse my not having responded to your messages for a while but I've had some work to get finished - deadlines to meet!

The men shown in the photographs of Deal are all recruits undergoing training prior to being posted elsewhere. I believe that Deal remained the training depot for Royal Marines until after the Second World War. Not sure when it actually changed off the top of my head!

Amongst the pictures I have are individual portraits of men included in some of the Squad pictures from Deal - and on the back has been written the name of the ship in which they were serving at the time the photograph was taken. They certainly seem to have spread around the Fleet!

Re the Broderick cap (never been sure of its correct spelling!). I was told once that the first issue peaked cap after the Broderick was simply a Broderick fitted with a peak. Looking at some of the pictures I can believe it!
I had always thought that the new caps were all issued at once but from the pictures it seems that they were issued as they became available and as required. Equally interesting is the variation in cap badges being worn - with RMLI badges being worn on the peaked cap and RM badges being worn on the Broderick cap. Again I suppose it was a case of the new badges being adopted as they became available.

Can anyone confirm or deny what I was told about the first issue peaked caps in the early 1920s?

Many thanks for everyones interest.

Pete

[grumpy]

Thank you. I rather doubt that converted Brodricks [I do assure you the spelling is correct] were the initial issue of the peaked cap ........... its not as if caps were in short supply.

I shall ask around.

[Guzzman]

Thanks Grumpy!

Since I posted my last entry I have obtained a copy of 'Personal Distinctions: 350 Years of Royal Marines Uniforms and Insignia' by John Rawlinson (Royal Marines Historical Society Special Publication 41).

He states on page 84 re the peaked cap in use from 1923-1933 that 'initially the new forage cap for other ranks was a Broderick cap with the addition of a peak'.

Then, referring to the cap in use between 1933-1952, he states 'as the old altered Brodericks became unserviceable a distinctive cap was introduced'.

This seems to confirm what I was told after all!

Pete

[Sunray9]

The Royal Marines Depot, Deal closed to recruit and Bands training, finally in 1996. RM Bands training moved to Portsmouth, nowadays, all RM Recruit and Young Officers training is done at CTCRM, Lympstone.

Ritchie.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Guzzman

Thanks Grumpy!

Since I posted my last entry I have obtained a copy of 'Personal Distinctions: 350 Years of Royal Marines Uniforms and Insignia' by John Rawlinson (Royal Marines Historical Society Special Publication 41).

He states on page 84 re the peaked cap in use from 1923-1933 that 'initially the new forage cap for other ranks was a Broderick cap with the addition of a peak'.

Then, referring to the cap in use between 1933-1952, he states 'as the old altered Brodericks became unserviceable a distinctive cap was introduced'.

This seems to confirm what I was told after all!

Pete

I hope he didn't write Broderick! The S os S for War after whom it was named was definitely not thus.

[Guzzman]

I'm afraid he did write 'Broderick' Grumpy! And I accept yours is the correct spelling.

Re Deal. I know it continued as the RM School of Music until it closed but I think that all recruit training moved to Lympstone in the 1950s or the early-1960s at the very latest. I'll have to check the date.

Pete