Large Welsh OSD collars

[JerryBB]

I have had this miss matched pair of Welsh OSD collars on lugs, though one has obviously been repaired and I wondered if it would have been on lugs originally or on blades. In the hand you can't see but perhaps an expert could say from the design of the badge?

The Welsh (as oposed to Welch) osd cap badges I have on blades all match the lugged version so they don't help me, with no cap between the feathers. I have shown the two on lugs and two on blades to compare.

Thanks for any help or insights.

[GriffMJ]

Jerry..... I would say that the first photo.... badge on the right is a Jennens & Co Cap badge (x2 loops E/W).... pre 1924.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Jerry..... I would say that the first photo.... badge on the right is a Jennens & Co Cap badge (x2 loops E/W).... pre 1924.

Not with lugs it aint!!

Andy

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Not with lugs it aint!!

Andy

Did they (The Welsh) ever wear that size of collar badge? I have seen the Cavalry Regiments wearing the cap badge (size) collars..... 10 Hussars comes to mind.

[2747andy]

Griff,
yes, most early OSD collar badges were exactly the same size as the cap badge, only the fittings differed!

Andy

[Sonofacqms]

Jerry,

The only way you can find out whether the repaired badge had blades or loops is to remove the loops and lead solder, my guess is it probably started out with blades.

Rob

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by Sonofacqms

Jerry,

The only way you can find out whether the repaired badge had blades or loops is to remove the loops and lead solder, my guess is it probably started out with blades.

Rob

Thanks Rob, that was my thought as well but I doubt I will go down that road any time soon, though maybe one day. Maybe I should get myself a soldering iron or relearn how to do brazing which I did in my apprenticeship in the 70's!

Thanks all for responding and good to know it was probably a Jennings & co, just it started life with blades.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

Thanks all for responding and good to know it was probably a Jennings & co, just it started life with blades.

Here is a 10th Hussars male die stamp that should give you a hint I have also seen the J&Co just on the lower scroll...... or simply no makers mark on the DHY.

[BROOKIES]

Large collars being worn and in the flesh.

Ta

Jonathan.

user5588_pic103641_1400337626.jpg P1010241 (1).jpg

[GriffMJ]

Thanks Jonathan..... I have been learned

[JerryBB]

Originally Posted by BROOKIES

Large collars being worn and in the flesh.

Ta

Jonathan.

Attachment 139714 Attachment 139715

And one here on a post card for 21/Welsh

[JerryBB]

added another Jennens to my collection, also with replacement soldered on lugs

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Griff,
yes, most early OSD collar badges were exactly the same size as the cap badge, only the fittings differed!

Andy

Absolutely right Andy, and as is usually the case with insignia, specifically linked with a new uniform, in this case via the 1902 iteration of Dress Regulations [for officers], with the introduction of “universal” service dress in that year. The subsequent regulations of 1904, decreed that the badges were to be worn with the centre of the badge 2-inches from the opening of the collar. The same pair of regulations stipulated bright collar badges (as opposed to the dull bronze of service dress**), for wear with the frock coat introduced at the same time as a specified replacement for the scarlet patrol jacket. This left just the identical (apart from colour) blue patrol jacket as an alternative undress to the frock coat.

Understanding the evolution of uniform enhances greatly the understanding of badges. They are directly linked and not simply an adjunct. The 1902 and 1904 Dress Regulations were thus seminal in the history of British Army collar badges and second only to 1874 when they had first been introduced, again as a direct result of a reform in uniform appointments.

**the bronze badges were chosen following the lessons learned from the 2nd Anglo/Boer War, when the excellent Boer marksmen had often picked off the officers, having identified them in part via glittering insignia.

NB. The large officers service dress collar badges introduced in 1902 became unpopular in some regiments, as also did some of the cap badges themselves, and over succeeding years some were changed to be more convenient in size, or simply a design more starkly different than that worn by other ranks. Further changes took place when regiments and corps were granted a Royal appellation following one or other of the world wars.