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  #16  
Old 17-08-15, 10:33 AM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
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I used to have a set of all the Aus crossed flags in different metals. I obtained them from a collector in Australia and he said the silver coloured one was for cavalry. I cant remember the reason for the copper brass and bronze. Perhaps this is part of the puzzle. I have never seen documentation on this and the rest of the commonwealth does not seem to have anything other than the brass and the enameled type for senior instructors from memory. NZ never had the enameled type just the brass crossed flags. I think they were gone by 1940.
Someone must know the answer, I hope so.
Quicksilver
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  #17  
Old 17-08-15, 07:09 PM
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The brass item was standard issue in Australia for signallers, telephonists, etc, post WW1; the oxidised copper version was worn by CMF personnel from 1921 until 1930 and again after the outbreak of WW2.

The copper one appears to be from the early 1930s where oxidised stocks were returned to the manufacturer to be de-oxidised and were re-issued for use in that form. I don't have a specific document for signals badges, just have seen an entry in 6MD correspondence register regarding the practice. Makes sense, being the Depression.

The whitemetal versions were post 1930 for use by Light Horse and Scottish units of Aust Army.

The blue and white enamelled badges appear to have been private purchase, I have a photo of a Great War AIF gunners tunic still in the possession of the family with this badge on it. Recently I did see something, possibly on this forum, about signalmen graduating from LHQ School of Signals and being awarded this badge. Will have to jog some brain cells, saw it and didn't bother recording it because it didn't apply to artillery sigs.

Brass, oxidised copper and whitemetal crossed flags with a star above in the same metal were worn by wireless operators of non-Corps of Signals units.

Keith
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  #18  
Old 17-08-15, 08:51 PM
Quicksilver Quicksilver is offline
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Thanks Keith for a most informative explanation.
BRgds Quicksilver
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  #19  
Old 17-08-15, 09:05 PM
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Thank you Keith, for that information. Very good.
Phil.
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  #20  
Old 18-08-15, 04:44 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
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Default Other Trade and Skills sleeve badges in WM

Thanks for the comments on the Sigs variations.
Other branches of the services also wore badges in brass, oxy, polished copper and WM. For example, I have two examples of the half-wreath Gothic letters G,R,S and L. Why WM for artillery? Will post a scan when I have time, plenty of brass and oxy but few WM.
I also have a set of Instructional Corps rising sons in WM, presumably for LH or Scottish units.
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  #21  
Old 18-08-15, 07:27 AM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drummajor View Post
Thanks Phil, yes you did send me the photos thanks, the gorgets look like a maroon colour, could be just me. Unfortunately I have lost the photos because I downloaded that B***** awful Windows 10, When I reverted back to windows 7 my computer has not been the same since. I have received the second lot you sent me. While I am here I have another question about the crossed flag arm badges, I have, Enamel, White Metal, Brass, Oxidised and Copper. I am guessing that the Enamel ones are Officers Signal Instructor, I don't know anything about the others. Maybe someone can help me.
Thank again Phil.
Regards Phil.
Hi Phil

Sorry l dont know why the enamel ones but will contact one of the guys at the sigs museum, but they are only there on a Tuesday so will have to waite till next week. I will let you know .

Regards

Phil.
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  #22  
Old 18-08-15, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsley View Post
I also have a set of Instructional Corps rising sons in WM, presumably for LH or Scottish units.
kingsley
id like to see these Instructional Corps rising sons in WM also.
why would they be different? that doesnt make sense to me
bc
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  #23  
Old 20-08-15, 02:46 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
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Default WM variations

I find that I have only one of the four arty trade badges in WM. Sorry no photo but is a standard Gothic R in a half wreath. Why WM for arty?

The Instructional Corps badges are a set in WM and a good quality aluminium hat badge with painted scrolls, unknown.

Have included a couple of enamelled Sigs variations and would be interested in comments.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg InstWM.jpg (95.9 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg AICWM2.jpg (51.6 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg Sigsenam.jpg (37.6 KB, 16 views)
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  #24  
Old 20-08-15, 04:36 AM
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Thanks for sharing, looks like the Americans have pinched the crossed flag with the red and yellow.
Phil.
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  #25  
Old 20-08-15, 06:28 AM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsley View Post
I find that I have only one of the four arty trade badges in WM. Sorry no photo but is a standard Gothic R in a half wreath. Why WM for arty?

The Instructional Corps badges are a set in WM and a good quality aluminium hat badge with painted scrolls, unknown.

Have included a couple of enamelled Sigs variations and would be interested in comments.
R in wreath was worn by machine-gun range-takers of infantry and light horse units. The w/m version would therefore be post 1930s for qualified personnel of the D or E (Support) Companies of Scottish inf bns equipped with Vickers MMG, and the MG Troops or Squadrons of Light Horse Regiments with Hotchkiss MG or perhaps Vickers MMG later.

Can't explain the red/white-yellow/gold crossed flags, not something for a merchant marine shipping company is it?

Keith
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  #26  
Old 20-08-15, 06:51 AM
kingsley kingsley is offline
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Dear Keith,
Thanks for the comments. Did the LH or Scottish wear any of the other three in WM?
The other sigs badge is standard Australian but I have no idea why the different colours.
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  #27  
Old 20-08-15, 10:49 AM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kingsley View Post
Dear Keith,
Thanks for the comments. Did the LH or Scottish wear any of the other three in WM?
The other sigs badge is standard Australian but I have no idea why the different colours.
Hi,

White-metal skills and trade badges were first notified in Australian Army Order 106/1934 dated 31 May 1934 amending Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries 1934. Can't positively identify which ones because they are only identified by their Catalogue Nos and I don't have 1934. They are not in PVCN 1931.

PVCN 1940 lists all the w/m badges, which were listed at this time as not of current manufacture, existing stocks of which would not be replaced. All types of material were replaced by oxidised copper versions in this PVCN. L, S and G are definitely not listed in w/m, these were worn by artillery only in Australia and were either brass, oxidised copper or de-oxidised copper. I haven't seen w/m versions of these three badges and they were not amongst the stocks of these badges released into the trade by the Aust War Memorial in the late 1980s or early 1990s although the w/m R in wreath was. These badges had all been handed over to AWM in 1949 from various ordnance depots, mostly 2 Central Ordnance Depot at Broadmeadows, Vic, and 2 Base Ordnance Depot at Moorebank NSW.

Also had a search of Standing Orders for Dress 1931 and 1935 - I have to admit there is not a specific instruction allocating w/m skill-at-arms badges to LH or Scottish. In fact there is no mention of material for skills badges at all although badges of rank (which included trade badges) were to be of brass or gilding metal. My copy of SO Dress 1931 is hand amended to read white-metal as well but this does not appear in the 1935 edition. Not sure if I've missed something somewhere.

Keith
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