Tyneside Irish Badge

[Luke H]

Hi Tyneside,

As I understand it some badges were not marked reid and sons, were these unmarked reid and sons or by a different manufacturer and hence a different die? Do you have any genuine unmarked examples made by this other manufacturer if that's indeed what they are?

Cheers,

Luke

[John Mulcahy]

On the unmarked genuine versions I would love to see the loop configurations, I am pretty certain that the looped versions have also been re-produced, these of course are tougher to spot than the versions with sliders.

Are they N&S or E&W ?

John

[tynesideirish]

John, Luke, Etc
The thing to remember with Tyneside Irish badges is this: use it as a tick list if buying or if your looking for one.

The Other Ranks Harp is 42 by 39mm and in Guilding metal. Reid & Sons Newcastle on Tyne

The Officers badge is 44 by 42 but in Bronze. Reid & sons...

The loops / lugs are E-W without fail.

The replacement batch is identicle in size, construction, materials, less one thing the makers name.

If I had any of these: If it is Brass or silver I'd BIN it. If it has a slider I'd BIN it. If it has N-S lugs I'd BIN it. If it is named any other maker I'd BIN it. if it is any other size I'd BIN it. If it is identicle but not marked Reid it May be a replacement, but there's more chance it's a fake.

if you have one of these and are under the impression that it feels right and your convinced its a real one keep it, but you'll have a hell of a job convincing any serious NF collector, without provinance.

The original batch by Reid & Sons wasn't a small batch. Large enough to see the bn's through the short 3 year lifespan. Saying that there wasn't vast numbers of badges produced.

It has been covered on many a forum by serious NF collectors there wasn't any produced for the brigade with sliders. Early restrikes since early 70's with sliders under the assumption they where cap badges is all they where/ are. They where given the benefit of the doubt by being mentioned in Dennis Woods NF badges book in 1988.

[wright241]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

John, Luke, Etc
The thing to remember with Tyneside Irish badges is this: use it as a tick list if buying or if your looking for one.

The Other Ranks Harp is 42 by 39mm and in Guilding metal. Reid & Sons Newcastle on Tyne

The Officers badge is 44 by 42 but in Bronze. Reid & sons...

The loops / lugs are E-W without fail.

The replacement batch is identicle in size, construction, materials, less one thing the makers name.

If I had any of these: If it is Brass or silver I'd BIN it. If it has a slider I'd BIN it. If it has N-S lugs I'd BIN it. If it is named any other maker I'd BIN it. if it is any other size I'd BIN it. If it is identicle but not marked Reid it May be a replacement, but there's more chance it's a fake.

if you have one of these and are under the impression that it feels right and your convinced its a real one keep it, but you'll have a hell of a job convincing any serious NF collector, without provinance.

The original batch by Reid & Sons wasn't a small batch. Large enough to see the bn's through the short 3 year lifespan. Saying that there wasn't vast numbers of badges produced.

It has been covered on many a forum by serious NF collectors there wasn't any produced for the brigade with sliders. Early restrikes since early 70's with sliders under the assumption they where cap badges is all they where/ are. They where given the benefit of the doubt by being mentioned in Dennis Woods NF badges book in 1988.

Tyneside Irish,
Good day. I was lucky enough - some years ago - to get hold of a few "Northumberland" related badges. A Reid & Son marked CB was one of them - as was the HM silver Volunteers Pipers badge. However, before these were acquired (about 10 years ago) someone sold me the TI CB with a slider and marked GAUNT - at the time, I recall them mentioning Woods book to justify its authenticity. Now I know and thanks.

Many thanks, David

[KLR]

tyneside, I am inteerested to know where you got the info on eg the size of the batch made by Reid & Sons.
Has it come from the papers of the local County TF Assoc ??
I've been through the papers of the W Lancs T Co assoc which mentions a bit about badges but regretably nothing about orders contracts etc though I'm sure the different Assoc papers throughout the country vary.
This is important as there is no centralised data for the ordering etc of TF (or eg Pals) throughout the country. The ACD records do have some TF but only for the duration of the 1st WW.
Interestingly, the ACD provided and had sealed patterns of Lpl Pals badges but not for any of the other Pals Bns !

[tynesideirish]

Originally Posted by wright241

Tyneside Irish,
Good day. I was lucky enough - some years ago - to get hold of a few "Northumberland" related badges. A Reid & Son marked CB was one of them - as was the HM silver Volunteers Pipers badge. However, before these were acquired (about 10 years ago) someone sold me the TI CB with a slider and marked GAUNT - at the time, I recall them mentioning Woods book to justify its authenticity. Now I know and thanks.

Many thanks, David

David,
I love the 3rd Volunteer Bn pipers badge you've got. FANTASTIC. What year is the hallmark?

Regarding the Gaunt TI badge, it doesn't take up much room so you should keep it. I'm sure someone will be prepared to convince you it's 'as worn' and you never know... Well no actually we do know! Sorry.

KLR,
About 25 years ago I was lucky enough to see some paperwork from Reid and Son, [who by the way, are still going and may answer queries, and sort out the question, once & for all?] Which showed 7000 Guilding and 700 Brass Irish Northumberland fusiliers harp titles. At the time I wasn't that bothered and didn't realise that one day it would be of interest to me how many where supplied. I can presume it was real, as the letterhead seemed so and the thing was dated, and Oh how I wished I'd copied it but when your young & daft what's a number? I cannot recall if it was a one off order or a repeat etc... Not much help.

Finally, 2 pictures from Graham Stewart from the WW1 forum. I'm sure he'll not mind me sharing. Graham is the Co author of Tyneside Scottish with John Sheen and a man with an impressive collection and equally impressive knowledge of NF items.

[wright241]

TynesideIrish,
Thanks. The pipers badge came from the same source as an Officers NF 1st Vol Batt helmet plate. I'll take a pic of the complete hallmark, ltrs etc tonight - but from memory it was a "c" - not sure of the font type though. Its also got "J.Stewart" scratched on it - very roughly - not sure whether this was the original owner or not? - the owner also told me that someone had borrowed the badge from his father - seemingly to make a solid silver copy - the original is hollow. I'll see what I can do this evening.

I have enclosed a front and rear picture of another TI badge - which I now assume to be a fake as well... its unmarked and not as sharp at the from as the re-strikes??

Rgds David

[wright241]

Heres a partial image - as you can see, its the letter C. I'll do a closer picture this evening.

Rgds, David

[tynesideirish]

David, thanks for going through the hassle of posting the hallmark. Birmingham 1902 Maker unclear from photo but possibly John Gloster Ltd. Nice!

I now know where you got it, the previous owners name confirmed it. I got a Berwick Rifle Vol Helmet plate from him. He had some great NF items.

The TI badge, well lets just say I wouldn't be offering you any money for it! But I'm not the authority on TI stuff, just because all the original ones I've seen are better quality or Reid & Son... You never know!

Mike

[wright241]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

David, thanks for going through the hassle of posting the hallmark. Birmingham 1902 Maker unclear from photo but possibly John Gloster Ltd. Nice!

I now know where you got it, the previous owners name confirmed it. I got a Berwick Rifle Vol Helmet plate from him. He had some great NF items.

The TI badge, well lets just say I wouldn't be offering you any money for it! But I'm not the authority on TI stuff, just because all the original ones I've seen are better quality or Reid & Son... You never know!

Mike

Mike,
Here is the picture - these QX5's are great - As you mentioned, its Birmingham 1902 Elkington & Co Ltd. All the best, David

[orasot]

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm not in the habit of binning anything on the basis of opinion or hearsay. In our hobby, if in your opinion you are happy with it - keep it !! Lugs n/s or e/w, how can you say for sure they were all made the same way, how many battalions of the NF were there ?
Just a few thoughts, Wilf.

[tynesideirish]

Wilf,
Firstly only 4 Bn's of Tyneside Irish and a feeder Bn. However the NF had a lot of Bn's. Over 40. They didn't however all wear the badges in question.

valid point, and I think everyone who's ever posted has expressed the same thought. If someone is happy with their badge they should not be unconvinced by a comment on here. Or if they are not bothered finding out either way then fine. No one likes to hear their lovely badge is actually a crock of sand pored rubbish, but if it is, why pussyfoot around?

However we are interested in a hobby where unfortunately outright fakes, fantasy pieces or restrikes abound. It is an expensive mistake to buy badges without knowledge. On this forum we can hopefully learn by other peoples mistakes. This shouldn't be bragging rights or look at how much I've spent but on the otherhand if someone has a beautiful genuine badge or collection, isn't it also nice to see it?

lets not forget what this forum is about. This is a forum where people can post the badges they are not sure about and get some debate about them. It would be stupid and probably immoral to post opinions good or bad about the authenticity of a units badge you don't collect to. (I know this happen's) It is unhelpful and annoying and counter productive.

However if I acquired a badge, or was thinking of buying one and someone is very knowledgeable on or has collected that particular Regiment for years I'd be very grateful if they posted pictures of real ones they owned and explained to me why mine was a restrike or a very good buy.

We all have the reference books but they are general and not always correct. I don't know a single book showing more than one Regiment that hasn't got wrong info or restrikes in it. This forum amongst other sites is a gem. There's not very much wrong or duff info and when some does arise it's quickly put right by someone with more experience. All in all a very helpful bunch of Military Historians!

[Stephen]

Can I have peoples opinions on this this badge please?

Thanks,

Stephen

Back of the badge.

[Luke H]

Its a resrike mate, the originals never had sliders as they were not intended as cap badges. There is a thread on the forum somewhere on how to spot a good un which I'll post as soon as I find it.

Welcome onboard btw, its a great place to be an learn loads of stuff. Don't let this one being bad get you down

Cheers,

Luke

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...tyneside+irish

[mgc]

Yes, in the book "Tyneside Irish" not one photo of badge on cap. Many though with badges on shoulder straps and collars. Would have been tough with slider!
According to my understanding fusiliers badge was worn on cap.