Unidentified hackle

[54Bty]

Red over blue hackle: worn with the 8th (Irish) Bn., The King's Regiment (Liverpool) by Warrant Officers in 626 (Liverpool Irish) Heavy Anti Aircraft Regiment RA (TA) c1947, later approved on 27th June 1953. Later changed to blue over red (why & when?) and worn with the RA cap badge on the green irish Caubeen by 'A' Troop (Liverpool Irish) 208 Air Defence Battery RA., 103rd (Lancashire Artillery Volunteers) Air Defence Regiment RA (V). Still being worn.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by 54Bty

Red over blue hackle: worn with the 8th (Irish) Bn., The King's Regiment (Liverpool) by Warrant Officers in 626 (Liverpool Irish) Heavy Anti Aircraft Regiment RA (TA) c1947, later approved on 27th June 1953. Later changed to blue over red (why & when?) and worn with the RA cap badge on the green irish Caubeen by 'A' Troop (Liverpool Irish) 208 Air Defence Battery RA., 103rd (Lancashire Artillery Volunteers) Air Defence Regiment RA (V). Still being worn.

This is the hackle I remember seeing in the early 80s at Larkhill being worn by a TA soldier (earlier e-mail refers). I now realise it was Liverpool Irish and not Liverpool Scottish. Apologies for any confusion.

[rolfi]

What follows is based on material held at Kew...
Headdress…
Officers wore a dark green caubeen with a silver plated badge and a red and St. Patrick’s blue hackle. The caubeen, also worn by the London Irish, was a large cap worn pulled down over the left ear with the cap badge over the right eye. At least one officer wore an other ranks’ caubeen with service dress probably due to a shortage of the officers’ version. Officers also wore the khaki version with battledress.
Other ranks wore a khaki caubeen with a white metal badge their hackle was red and green. Both the officer’s green and other ranks’ khaki caubeen were made by J. Compton Sons and Webb Ltd for six shillings and three shillings and nine pence respectively. The hackles, priced at a shilling each, were made by Walker, Webb & Baker Ltd.

and...

In December 1939 Lieutenant Colonel Murphy, the then commanding officer, in a letter to the Director of Ordnance Services suggested that the battalion should wear a cloth shoulder title of khaki with the words “LIVERPOOL IRISH” in green worsted embroidery; the suggestion was never acted upon.

[John Mulcahy]

Rolfi is right

The file in question is WO32/4709 which covers clothing and badges of the 8th (Irish) battalion of the King's regiment following its re-formation in 1939.

The file makes an interesting read as there was quite a debate over badges, titles and hackles.

After several letters the battalion was allowed to wear the "former" cap badge design in nickle. The battalion was very firmly instructed to wear regular King's regiment collar badges, buttons and the WO was very insistant on the fact that "Kings" was to appear in the shoulder title.

[rolfi]

Here are a couple of photos of the caubeen and hackle in wear...

[Peter Brydon]

Hello Rolfi from another scouser.

Unfortunatly I cannot enlarge the pictures you have posted,the badges appear to be the other ranks badges worn by officers, am I wrong ?

I am attaching a picture of Lt.Col. Murphy,but you cannot see his cap badge,also a picture of Lt.Col. Eddy Hodges ( then a captain) members might be familiar with his sons recent book on contemporary insignia.Col.Hodges is wearing the officers badge in his caubeen and "Kings Regt" officers service dress collar badges as well as the hackle
P.B.

[rolfi]

Hello PB
Well spotted Peter; one of the officers does appear to wear an other ranks' cap badge. To be honest I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out. One wonders how many officer's cap badges were actually made?
You can't enlarge the pictures I posted because they're only thumbnails. Here's a better one...

[Peter Brydon]

Rolfi,
Fantastic picture, interestingly most appear to be wearing the Kings OSD collar badges( as they should be ). Do you have any names or a date ?

Do you have the full picture ?

Is the officer to the left of the padre Lt.Col.Hynes ?

Any further information much appreciated

Peter

P.S. you can normally enlarge the thumbnails on this site by clicking on them

[Peter Brydon]

Rolfi,
The attached ( if you can read it ) might be of interest to you, In the 1970`s I was corresponding with Col.Max Morrison, I did not realise at the time the his significance in the history of the reformed Liverpool Irish and that he was a double MC winner.( note in his letter no mention of one never mind 2 MC`s )

I think the numnber of Liverpool Irish officers badges post 1939 was very limited and as Col.Morrison says in his letter to me, he changed the badge( which I believe was based upon a crest used earlier by the Liverpool Irish ) so that instead of" BATT" on the scroll it read "Bn",so there should be 2 varieties of the officers badge.

P.B.

If you or anyone else would like a copy of the letter which I dont think is too clear please E mail me and I will send a better copy

[KLR]

Fascinating thread. I've been aware of this file at Kew for quite a while and regretably have'nt had time to go and look. There is another one - dated late 1940s ? - on the headdress of the Lpl Irish there too.

Regarding badges that officers wore, it is fairly clear to me that they often wore what they liked. For example there are fully hall marked badges and cheaper unmarked badges and even silver plate badges.
Continuing with the Liverpool thread, my great uncle was the medical officer with the Lpl Scottish in the early 1930s (ie pre Cameron affiliation). A photograph of him at the time shows him wearing RAMC collars but a Lpl Scot glengarry badge. He later gave me the actual badge - it's WM and NOT silver !! But then the design of the officers and the other ranks badge was exactly the same, it was just made in different metals !
(I wish he / I did have a silver one !)
Julian

[Jgray]

Originally Posted by tynesideirish

Although Hackles are still worn by Fusilier Regiments, RTR, Royal Signals and some others, currently no British unit wears /wore these colours in a hackle.

The Royal Warwickshire fusiliers briefly had Orange over Blue when the RW regiment where given Fusilier status but FM Montgomery suggested they be reversed and of course they were.

Red over blue could be a cazoo band or even an LOL Band from Ulster.

Hi Tynesideirish. I was a bandsman on the parade ground at the barracks in Hameln Germany on the day of the formal parade when The Royal Warwickshires became fusiliers.

The date 1st May 1963, the salute was taken by Lieutenant General K.T. Darling. Montgomery was not present. I still have the booklet issued to us for the occasion and the hackle.

We were issued with Blue on Orange hackles straight afterwards but we never saw or heard of any change from Orange on Blue at any time. Just out of interest could you say the source of this info. regards

[Michael O'Neil]

Hi Folks,

Am new to the forum but have got some images that might be of help to other members, particularly on this thread. I am no expert on the hackle, badges or uniform aspect of the 8th Irish - my main interest is a genealogical one. My grandfather was in this battalion and we have a few momentos - though not many. Somewhere in the family is a photo of him in his uniform wearing his caubeen and hackle but no one as yet can put a hand on it - the one I've attached shows him playing piano in the band photo. I thought this would be of interest as it shows a piper in full kilt regalia. Obviously being b/w one cannot tell the hackle's colours! The other image is a scan from the November 1976 issue of The Bulletin (Military Historical Society). It was written by Peter Brydon and shows all the badges (to his knowledge) worn by the battalion. I personally have only ever seen badges 1, 2, 4 and 5. He supplies the info as follows:
1. WW1 reads 8th (Irish) Bn. Kings Liverpool Regt.
2. WW2 reads 8th (Irish) Bn. The Kings Regiment L'Pool Regt. 1939+
3. Officers badge bearing Angel harp, Kings crown on green cord boss. 1908-1922.
4. Officers badge 1939+ Erin Go Brach South Africa 1900-1902.
5. Annodised version of badge 2 with St Edwards crown
6. Appears to be collar badge - possibly worn at same time as badge 1 but not certain.
We have 2 versions of badge 4 in our family both solid silver which belonged to Captain Stanley J. Foster (189207) of Middlesex. He was A company's second in command and he was killed 7th June 1944 when a german plane's bomb hit an ammunition truck during the Normandy landings. My grandfather was his batman and it appears that they were close - both being family men at the time.
I hope this info is of use to someone - I would be very interested to hear from anyone, in particular Rolfi as I would like to find more images and the one you have posted offers what appears to be officers of the battalion. I would like a hi-res copy of this image with any info you have.

Michael.

[Peter Brydon]

Micheal,
I had not seen you post before I replied to your E mail, my Liverpool Irish collection has increased since I wrote the article in the MHS Bulletin. a recent photo of my Liverpool Irish bit and and pieces is attached.

Regards

Peter

[Peter Brydon]

Attached is a photograph of a platoon of "A" company, no idea I am afraid of the name of the officer,

I am sure it would be much appreciated if Micheal could post some photos of the officers badges he has

P.B.

[billy4294]

I served with 208 bty ( Liverpool Irish ) when it was a Blowpipe unit ( not the type used by natives ! ) Hackle was blue over red and was worn with the corbeen, badge over right eye, on rememrance parades. We used to borrow a pipe band ( The hackle is still worn today )