RND - Drake Bn - Thoughts Please?

[2747andy]

Advance Warning - As this Cap Badge does not fall into my area of collecting it will probably be offered for sale on my Ebay site or I would be open to any reasonable offers made by viewers of this thread. Please do not contribute if you object to me obtaining information via the Forum on an item intended for future sale.

A recent find and without a "Gaunt" plate or sweatholes I'm pretty confident this is genuine. It also features a non-voided crown which is not common either. It has plenty of positive features, such as the detail, weight, patina, braze and sturdy "D" shaped lugs! I feel it could be a non-Gaunt makers variation! Any thought please?

Andy

[Chrisr]

Andy,

This is mine, which I know is genuine, for comparison. Like yours mine it has no sweatholes and no Gaunt plaque, but it does have a voided crown.

IMO the view that 99.5% of RND badges have the gaunt plaque is pure tosh, as of all six of the RND badges I have, acquired in 1962 from an old collection, only one has a gaunt plaque.

I wonder just how many RND badges have been consigned to the fake box based on comments that have no foundation or basis of truth. I think there are more variations of the RND badges than previously thought.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Chris

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by Chrisr

Andy,

This is mine, which I know is genuine, for comparison. Like yours mine it has no sweatholes and no Gaunt plaque, but it does have a voided crown.

IMO the view that 99.5% of RND badges have the gaunt plaque is pure tosh, as of all six of the RND badges I have, acquired in 1962 from an old collection, only one has a gaunt plaque.

I wonder just how many RND badges have been consigned to the fake box based on comments that have no foundation or basis of truth. I think there are more variations of the RND badges than previously thought.

Hope this helps.

Cheers
Chris

Chris,
I agree with you 100% that there are probably genuine "Plaque less" RND badges out there, however they would of all had to comply with a basic pattern. In my opinion (IMO), where the fakers have slipped up in the copying process is their attention to detail! Details on Drake Bn
Badges such as:

Globe Shape - Semi-circular and not cone shaped!
Globe Detail - Copies tend to have incorrect and missing landmasses!
Depth of Strike - Copies tend to be flatter than originals!

Just a few observations, but when you study them, copies are quite easy to spot!

Thanks for your reply and best regards.

Here is one like yours! and here is a copy IMO

Andy

[Chrisr]

Hi Andy,

I agree with you. Too often these badges have been faked.

Thanks for the links - the fake stands out quite clearly - eg leaves an crown in particular.

All the best.

Cheers
Chris

[dubaiguy]

Andy
Of course the other main howler on fakes are the words Auxilio Davino not being separated. Unlike yours obviously - a good sign.

But........I don't like the land mass on your badge. It certainly doesn't appear to represent the contiguous land mass of Northern Europe as seen on those that are deemed original badges. IMO the UK and Ireland are usually well defined in the square that is formed by the intersecting lines of longitude and latitude; second up from the bottom and second in from the left. All I can see on yours is a squiggle. And what's going on in the middle of France. There shouldn't be a horizontal coast defining line snaking across the bottom of the badge just south of Paris.

Also for me, the hatching on the ships quarterdeck appears poorly defined and the anchor is out of scale.

I'll be the contrarian in the pack and say, it is miles better than all the usual fakes I have seen, but the badly represented map of Europe gives me doubt. Hmmm! Verdict, guilty until proven otherwise.

Cheers
Mark

[2747andy]

Mark,
I'm now certain it is right and fairly certain too that it did not come from the standard "Gaunt" die? The oak leaves are very detailed and also the detail to the ship, however there is some distortion to the area left of the anchor. The detail to the rigging and the free flying pennant also lead me to believe it to be a genuine example from another manufacturer? I agree on the Landmass detail, but it is crisp both front and rear! As to France, who cares what goes on there.

Andy

[Chrisr]

Originally Posted by dubaiguy

Andy
Of course the other main howler on fakes are the words Auxilio Davino not being separated. Unlike yours obviously - a good sign.

Cheers
Mark

Hi Mark,

How do you explain mine - the words are not separated, but I know the badge was collected in the 1920's/1930's and I acquired it from the old collector in 1962.

What is the basis that Auxilio Davino not being separated definitely makes it a fake?

Cheers
Chris

[dubaiguy]

Very Interesting Chris.

I must admit I did not notice it on yours. I have a couple of known fakes, each with the central meridian line missing, the UK not on the map and a flat poor strike. In each case the words are joined together.

I also have a genuine (Gaunt tablet) badge with all the above features present (plus different planking on the boat, different pennants, sweat holes etc). On this badge the words are clearly separated as they should be. I'm not latin schooled, but they are two discreet words I believe.

I cannot argue that there are not other genuine examples that have one of these features (or lack of feature). You and Andy may be quite correct that there are genuine strikes other than the Guant strike generally accepted as kosher.
Judging by your comments on provenance it would seem to be the case and bears out your arguement for multiple manufacturers.

It makes you wonder what the fakers used as their template to copy. Could it have been the joining of the words on your badge? Interesting.

All the best
Mark

[Chrisr]

Thank you Mark.

From viewing my collection and the badges posted on this forum, I now believe there were at least two if not three different manufacturers. The Nelson I have from the same period is a design that was considered a fake badge on the basis of someone saying so in the 1970's. There are fake copies of it but one can see differences between the obvious fakes and mine, but because someone said the design was fake it was accepted unquestioningly the whole badge was fake.

Nor do I believe 99.5% of the genuine ones have gaunt plaques - it seems there are now fake gaunt plaques so I am not sure such a plaque makes an RND kosher anymore, which is a shame.

Perhaps we should set up a page with genuine RND badges form people's collections?

On a larger scale, I am just wondering how many of the differences thrown up as indicator of a fake badge are on the basis of someone's say so, rather than based on sound facts. The fakers really have caused problems in the hobby, but I guess that gives us an added challenge in collecting.

Cheers
Chris

[royston]

RND DRAKE badge with Gaunt Plate and Sweat hole for comparison. I have another, heavy bronze, which I have been informed, by an expert auctioneer, is a copy. I have always had my doubts! and will put it on the forum shortly

John

[2747andy]

Here are two genuine examples already on the Forum, hope the owners don't mind the links?

1st Front

1st Rear

2nd Front

2nd Rear

Seems on the Gaunt patterns alone there are three differing patterns for the back plate? 1 circular vent hole, 2 circular vent holes and a vertical rectangular vent!


Andy

[sappersson]

See this link

http://arnhemjim.blogspot.ca/2011/08...badges_28.html

I believe this link was previously posted on the forum so I hope I have not offended anybody by posting without permission.

Cheers Paul

[2747andy]

Paul,
thanks for posting the link, some very good information! I am now more than happy that the badge I posted at the start of this thread is genuine and probably not made by Gaunt, but by whom I doubt will be easy to find out? A guess would be someone like Lambourne?

Thanks to all who have contributed!

Seasons Greetings

Andy

[Chrisr]

Having looked at the arnhemjim link I wonder on what basis the comments regarding the fakes were made, and that there is only one version of each genuine RND badge. One has the question the authenticity of the linked comparisons, and how the expert advice was arrived at.

For example, my HAWKE - neither of the talons touch the R or the I in STRIKE, however unlike the "copy" both go over the raised bit of the scroll, and the left talon (as you look at the badge) touches the top of the T. The bird is the similar but not exactly the same as the "genuine" example, mine having a narrower head, (but not the same as in the "copy") and the fleurs de lys is more like the one on the "copy".

My HOOD has the narrower writing than the "genuine" example and the there is no void between the STEADY and HOOD scrolls, and the bird is slimmer.

On NELSON my pennant is the same as the 'genuine' example but not voided, and the figurehead is not as fat.

My HOWE has voiding between the pennants and the sails, but is different to the "copy" in that is there are joins between the central ship's aft and the sails, and the joins between the outer half hulls and the sails are thicker. The metal is a yellower brass colour.

My DRAKe has the joined motto on the bottom and the word DRAKE at the top is finer than that in the "genuine" copy.

Yet all are genuine for reasons given in my first post.

Perhaps we need to re-think some of the "expert advice" being passed out on RND badges. IMO there are variants of all RND badges due to manufacturers differences.


Cheers
Chris

[2747andy]

Chris,
please don't take this the wrong way, as it is not aimed directly at you, but having been on this Forum a few years and having learnt a great deal during that time, I have found that when it's members hint that a certain badge is not what it should be, then quite often it is because it is either wonky or an item not seen before? We all tend to want to bury our heads in the sand from time to time when we discover one of our prized items is a crock of S.H.-one T.

But I for one have learnt that there is more knowledge on here as a collective than there is out there selling badges and insignia! You are also quite right that we need to be careful when heeding the advice on offer and there are very few experts in this hobby of ours, however the advice is always offered in good spirit. My advice not exactly "expert" would be to all those that resort to burying their heads in the sand, is that time in denial would be better spent above ground gaining knowledge for future purchases!

HOWEVER - Never bin a badge when you still have the tiniest grain of thought that it might turn out to be right! Unless it cost a lot of money, then I'd send it straight back to whence it came!

Seasons Greetings

Andy