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  #16  
Old 02-05-10, 08:09 AM
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Bloomers however do show a bi-metal Kings badge which is not well thought of. They are not infallible and indeed knew sh*t as well!

Also my point about it being an economy was to show the flawed logic linking the 2 suppositions. I actually wrote ' All brass = WW1 Economy (which it doesn't but bear with me)'

Last edited by Alan O; 04-05-10 at 07:47 AM.
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  #17  
Old 02-05-10, 08:13 AM
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Andy

I only agree with Alan.... due to the fact that the LYPAO had to wear the cap badges of the 5th Lancers, 16th Lancers & 4th Hussars c1918-19. LY Officers wore their collars and their attached Regiments cap badge.
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  #18  
Old 02-05-10, 09:41 AM
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There are 2 (sort of) related questions here:

1. Did the F&F yeo wear the Bw badge after 1917? They certainly wore BW kilts on occasions as the regtl history shows (it is on-line). I suspect that there was a mixture of F&F and BW as reinforcements arrived from 2 regtl sources.

2. The second is whether the brass one is 1917-18. If it is not an economy what is the logical reason for it during this time period? Why could they not be pre war slouch hat abdges or a makers' error. Soory to be pedantic but where is the evidence for this BW claim?

Finally don't forget that there were 2 other Bns of F&F yeo in UK from 1917-19 but sellers are not quite so keen to sell them as 3rd Reserve 'never went anywhere' bn!

Alan
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  #19  
Old 02-05-10, 11:02 AM
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Alan

Gaylor lists (according to collections at the time c1965) all the regiments that had an "all brass" issue. The Black Watch is among the Infantry list ..... the FFY is not in the Yeomanry section? Now, living memory at the time would have had the FFY in that list if it was issued to the 14th Btn (FFY) Black Watch? It would have been an unusual thing to wear the "Thain" as a cap badge if you were a "Black Watch" Battalion....... that sort of thing would have been remembered and documented.... dont you think?
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 02-05-10 at 11:07 AM.
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  #20  
Old 02-05-10, 12:20 PM
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Gaylor's list is rubbish. All it shows is that an all brass one existed in the 1960s colections.

The Regtl history shows a F&F badge in use in 1917. Witht he pressure of war and the distance to the Middle east there would not have been a mmediate re-badging in Jan 17.

It is more likely to have been rcorded by the Yeo if they had been made to rebadge and there is no record of it in the regtl history!

Alan
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  #21  
Old 02-05-10, 12:33 PM
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Ok..... so "Gaylor" is not well respected it appears.... in that case ..... what is "the book" that is respected overall?

Here is another "what is thought to be" 14th (FFY) Btn The Black Watch example from a reputable dealer:-
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 02-05-10 at 03:46 PM.
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  #22  
Old 02-05-10, 01:01 PM
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Griff,
there isn't... you just have to combine the info in the books (Gaylor, K&K, Wikinson, Bloomers, Westlake, Cox, blah, blah, blah...

..... then couple that with info from this Forum and then arrive at a Best Guess solution!

Andy
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  #23  
Old 02-05-10, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2747andy View Post
Griff,
there isn't... you just have to combine the info in the books (Gaylor, K&K, Wikinson, Bloomers, Westlake, Cox, blah, blah, blah...

..... then couple that with info from this Forum and then arrive at a Best Guess solution!

Andy
Well, just having this post up has taught me much....

I have not found a Brass version of "pattern 1" yet..... only white metal.
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  #24  
Old 02-05-10, 02:00 PM
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Think I have found some evidence for the badge of the 14th (FFY) Btn The Black Watch:-



S/20121 Private

John Wallace Keith

14th Bn. Black Watch

(Fife and Forfar Yeomanry)

02/09/1918, aged 22.

Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension

IMO, if the 14th battalion wore the "Thain" cap badge as the 14th Btn..... then it would be on the grave? I think that photgraph provides some good proof of the official badge of the 14th Btn? I have found other WW1 war graves or memorials and in each case the soldier is described as Reg # 14th (FFY) The Black Watch and then "Formerly" Reg# of the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry.

Prior to becoming the 14th (FFY) Battalion the Black Watch in 1918...... the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry fought at Gallipoli earlier in the War...... so if the Brass badge was issued at the time then I am sure it was worn then .....as the FFY Regiment proper. So I would describe the brass badge more properly as the "Gallipoli Badge" in light of the evidence I have read through?


Here is a bit more evidence that possibly proves the 1915-17 FFY Brass "Thain"....... look at the colour of the badge on the WW1 pillow case.
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 02-05-10 at 03:53 PM.
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  #25  
Old 02-05-10, 03:55 PM
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Griff,

Gravestones can be inaccurate but the photo is unequivacable.
It certainly is proof that they were in BW uniforms by the end of the war. They were in France by the last year of the war and he is definately wearing a black watch badge and not the F&F yeo.

The cushion is stylised so is not so helpful. The photos of the regt in the Middle east show them largely in badgeless pugarees.

Alan
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  #26  
Old 02-05-10, 04:07 PM
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The image below shows a cadre of 14th (FFY) Btn Black Watch c1917, wearing the Black Watch "Tam'o Shanter" (and uniform)..... there is no badge..... just a red hackle.


The picture below shows the 14th (FFY) Btn Black Watch football team c1918, the officers wear the Black Watch "Tam" with red hackle.... but they do wear the "Thain" collar badges
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  #27  
Old 02-05-10, 04:50 PM
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Default The Thane of Fife

"Lay on Macduff" ( Shakespeare) (Macduff was the Thane of Fife)

"The fiercer every warrior's spirit grew
The fiercer and madder burn'd the brave"
(The Thane of Fife, a poem by William Tennant, 1822)

Gentlemen

This is a really fun thread! Can anybody join in?

I have put up a few Thanes but not neccessarily to bring light and learning.

The first one was part of a small collection of badges given me c1942. I had no idea who or what it was at that time. However it matches that put up by Andy in post no. 2 and that of Alan in post no. 17. I have absoutely no doubts about its authenticity.

The second badge could be described as a bit knocked about. However once again I believe it to be a genuine badge, it is clearly well polished, a badge treasured by the original owner. Look at the reverse. The slider departed at some stage but it has been repaired with split pins, not to the standard that Dave would do but sufficiently well to survive. This is not a reproduction.

The third one is similar to Keith's in post no. 23. If he is happy with it so am I.

There are three totally different but authentic badges so who know's how many more there could be?

I feel we must be getting close to the truth though.

Best wishes

Gordon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg F&FY 1.jpg (19.7 KB, 105 views)
File Type: jpg F&FY 1 reverse.jpg (19.5 KB, 81 views)
File Type: jpg F&FY 2.jpg (18.7 KB, 90 views)
File Type: jpg F&FY 2 reverse.jpg (16.1 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg F&FY 3.jpg (19.3 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg F&FY 3 reverse.jpg (19.0 KB, 69 views)
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  #28  
Old 02-05-10, 05:04 PM
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Default The Thane rides again!

Gentlemen

As the Thane appears to the flavour of the moment I thought you might like to see these as well.

The first was sold to me by Douglas Hill, in Richmond in 1973. He told me then, and I knew no better, that this was the NCOs' Arm Badge. It is a casting taken from the centre of the Helmet Plate of the Fife Mounted Rifles, 1860 - c1870. ( Bloomer, p 45, no 280)

Is there any photographic evidence to support this possibility?

The second badge is that of the 6th (Fifeshire) Volunteer Bn, an OR's Glengarry badge in wm, 1887 - 1908.

So Macduff put himself about a bit.

Best wishes

Gordon
Attached Images
File Type: jpg F&FY NCO's Arm Badge.jpg (18.7 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg 6th (Fifeshire) VB ORs Glengarry badge 1887-1908.jpg (21.2 KB, 39 views)
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  #29  
Old 02-05-10, 06:04 PM
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If anyone manages to contact 2FFY (member of this forum), Rob knows almost everything about that regiment and his badges. He lives in Fife and the Fifes are his life! Should you contact him, he'll certainly be able to help you.

Here is my Gaunt badge.
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File Type: jpg FFY.jpg (59.3 KB, 83 views)
File Type: jpg FFYverso.jpg (48.0 KB, 93 views)
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  #30  
Old 02-05-10, 06:07 PM
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Thanks very much L&BH

To me that badge is a "pattern 1" .......... and the slider (according to a conversation I had with Andy yesterday) looks like the 1970's Gaunt slider?
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