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  #91  
Old 29-08-11, 10:29 PM
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Good Heavens, what is it? It rather looks like an OR's grenade from one of the Fusilier regiments that were worn on the shoulder or (sometimes) collar.
What is the size?
I would certainly agree that it would be a satisfactory way to affix it to a Pagri, although more likely one of the large true Pagris as worn by the Indian Other Ranks.

CB
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  #92  
Old 31-08-11, 09:55 PM
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Default Dress Regulations & the FSH

01.jpg 02.jpg

As a lot of you may be unfamiliar with "Dress Regulations" I just thought I'd produce these Reg's from 1911 regarding the FSH and will produce the "Badges" sections for the cavalry and infantry.

What you have to remember these are Dress Reg's for officers, not other ranks and the badges described in my next lists are for the "white" Wolseley helmet and not the khaki Wolseley, which was your campaign helmet.

This suggests and photographic seems to back this up, that any badges approved for the khaki FSH, would in the main be cloth or distinctive i.e. coloured pagri's.

It is interesting to note that both the Northumberlands and DCLI are both singled out as having special distinctions for the "white" FSH. The NF which was red above white pagri and the DCLI, which was an all red pagri.
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  #93  
Old 31-08-11, 10:03 PM
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41.jpg 42.jpg
The Hussars

46.jpg 47.jpg
The Lancers

Guards.jpg
The Guards
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  #94  
Old 31-08-11, 10:05 PM
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every time i click on one of the links it says invalid attachment

Malc
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  #95  
Old 31-08-11, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joachim View Post
every time i click on one of the links it says invalid attachment

Malc
Seems to be coming up OK this end.
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  #96  
Old 31-08-11, 10:31 PM
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Life Guards & RHG

35.jpg 36.jpg 37.jpg
Dragoons & Dragoon Guards
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  #97  
Old 31-08-11, 10:39 PM
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61.jpg 62.jpg 63.jpg 64.jpg 65.jpg 66.jpg 67.jpg 68.jpg 69.jpg 70.jpg 71.jpg 72.jpg
Infantry of the Line
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  #98  
Old 31-08-11, 10:47 PM
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74.jpg 75.jpg
Fusiliers Regiments

79.jpg 80.jpg 81.jpg
The Highland Regiments

83.jpg
The Highland Light Infantry

85.jpg 86.jpg
The Lowland Regiments

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The Cameronians

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The Rifle Regiments
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  #99  
Old 06-09-11, 11:58 PM
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Last edited by Charlie585; 21-11-13 at 03:12 PM.
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  #100  
Old 07-09-11, 03:10 PM
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post-35836-0-16377300-1311541004.jpg post-599-0-89177800-1311590317.jpg
With thanks to the GWF.

Charlie585 - Couple of additional shots for you - one showing the very distinctive and very dark pagri of the RB on the 'white' FSH. A good look at the pagri in the illustration shows that it was diagonal "black & rifle green" sections from front to rear of the helmet. Also what is noted from this print is that the RB were one of the very few to wear their cap badge positioned as noted in 1911 DR's.

Also an photo of the Indian pattern frock coat worn by the RB.
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  #101  
Old 07-09-11, 04:03 PM
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A nice example in today's Bosley's auction.

http://www.mycommissionbid.com/bid/viewitem.php?id=608
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  #102  
Old 07-09-11, 06:11 PM
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Last edited by Charlie585; 21-11-13 at 03:12 PM.
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  #103  
Old 13-09-11, 02:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Graham Stewart View Post
Firstly not all metal badges worn with the FSH, were slotted into the pagri at all, but were often fitted higher up above the pagri, which brings into question what was the badge fitting? Without actually examining a genuine museum example or examples, this then brings into question the belief that all FSH badges were fitted with long sliders as being pure speculation.
.
Graham

I appreciate your point that even though a decision may have been taken with regards to a certain course of action that does not necessarily mean or prove that it was executed.

I am reviewing the notes and photos I took during a visit to the NA last month. I thought that the following from W0359 vol 12 might be of interest to this discussion.


Badges Cap Headdress FS Helmet with pith band

ACD 38/528 5/1/03

At a meeting of
( initials look like AGJ . COOI CI ) in pattern room on 5/1/03 it was agreed that the same badge should be used for the cork F.S. Helmet and Universal Headdress.

That the centre of Helmet Plate shall be used for above in all cases where a centre of Helmet plate is used. In other cases the Glengarry badge or existing full dress badge.

For Cavalry the field service cap badge to be used for F.S.H. and Universal Headdress.

The whole of the above to be fitted with a single vertical shank.

For N.P. Forage Caps. The existing Field Cap Badges shall be used fitted with a vertical shank but the cap not to be fitted with a socket.

That existing sealed pattern centre plates and badges be amended by a note on the label stating when supplies are required for services with either F.S Helmet or Universal Headdress a vertical shank will be reqd


An inset reads Labels on helmet plate badges to be worn on new service dress hats to be amended to read Badges for Service dress hat to be fitted with vertical shanks same as Dorset pattern no 5814/1903....

In the same volume Smith & Wright are submitting lead impressions of the Glengarry badges of the Lancashire, Royal Scots, Royal Welsh. Royal Dublin and Royal Irish Fusiliers which as late as 1903 I speculate is not for the Glengarry but against the decision noted above.


John
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  #104  
Old 13-09-11, 05:56 AM
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This is the reference I have cited before in relation to the adoption of the slider in 1903. The "N[ew] P[attern] Forage Cap" was the Brodrick.
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  #105  
Old 13-09-11, 04:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mulcahy View Post
Graham

I appreciate your point that even though a decision may have been taken with regards to a certain course of action that does not necessarily mean or prove that it was executed.

I am reviewing the notes and photos I took during a visit to the NA last month. I thought that the following from W0359 vol 12 might be of interest to this discussion.


Badges Cap Headdress FS Helmet with pith band

ACD 38/528 5/1/03

At a meeting of
( initials look like AGJ . COOI CI ) in pattern room on 5/1/03 it was agreed that the same badge should be used for the cork F.S. Helmet and Universal Headdress.

That the centre of Helmet Plate shall be used for above in all cases where a centre of Helmet plate is used. In other cases the Glengarry badge or existing full dress badge.

For Cavalry the field service cap badge to be used for F.S.H. and Universal Headdress.

The whole of the above to be fitted with a single vertical shank.

For N.P. Forage Caps. The existing Field Cap Badges shall be used fitted with a vertical shank but the cap not to be fitted with a socket.

That existing sealed pattern centre plates and badges be amended by a note on the label stating when supplies are required for services with either F.S Helmet or Universal Headdress a vertical shank will be reqd


An inset reads Labels on helmet plate badges to be worn on new service dress hats to be amended to read Badges for Service dress hat to be fitted with vertical shanks same as Dorset pattern no 5814/1903....

In the same volume Smith & Wright are submitting lead impressions of the Glengarry badges of the Lancashire, Royal Scots, Royal Welsh. Royal Dublin and Royal Irish Fusiliers which as late as 1903 I speculate is not for the Glengarry but against the decision noted above.


John
While I can't disagree, with what the ACD say, I have yet to see a photograph with a H.P. centre used in conjuction with a "white" FSH or in the position with the pagri as mentioned by dress regs, post 1903 - apart from the illustration showing the RB a cap badge with a coloured(Rifle Green & Black) pagri.

All of the O/R's photo's produced here, which are post 1903, show cap badges being worn with the white F.S.H., that are in the main the N.P.(Borderick) Forage cap badge pattern(or glengarry in the case of Scots units) and nor are they in the centre of the pagri. The odd two out bring the NF & DCLI, who wore no badges at all, but both wore coloured pagri's

As for the khaki F.S.H., once again, what we see in period photographs, goes against what DR's specify i.e. "that no badges should be worn", and post 1903 a proponderance of usually cloth insignia/hackles etc starts making it's appearance. This in effect makes statements from the ACD totally obsolete.

So in essence what the ACD said "would be worn" and what the regimental "tribes" took into wear are two different things, which requires study in greater detail.
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