27th Lancers

[Alan O]

As 27L has just joined the forum I thought this an opportune time to post my 27L badges. The fakes by the way are superb. I have had one next to mine and apart from a slight difference in dimensions the only give away was that the back was completely flat with no sweat hole.

I have 2:

Firstly a Firmin london one with all brass pennants. The Firmin one has a rectangular sweat hole behind the elephant.

Secondly unknown maker's one with w/m pennants on the lances. Unfortunately the slider has been replaced by 2 loops. It has 2 brass wire strengtheners on it. This looks good but is a very good fake as the regt OR's did not wear bi-metal pennon badges. This information is from Peter Seaman who is acknowledged as a premier source on the war-raised cavalry regts.

Alan

[Keith Blakeman]

I'd also welcome an opinion on the badges I have too. Like Alan above I have the brass pennon Firmin version (fully die stamped) and the bi-metal pennon one (die cast/sweathole/rods). The former I have no problem with and ought not to with the latter but it's always nagged me after seeing a seller in the old Islington market with one amongst all his other stuff which was all fake.

So I recently got this Gaunt full bimetal one as it has the small brand and is fully die stamped but it has no sweatholes. Not a major cause for concern as their contemporary 25th DG has none either but the whitemetal pennons are heavy overlays which seem very clumsy for the largest badge maker.

I have some collars which I'll post next as they need some explanation too.

[Keith Blakeman]

The collars. A nice matching pair but for some strange reason there are sweatholes on the pennons (filled) but only one of the elephants heads has some sort of pin attachment. Then a single collar which if I had a slidered cap badge with these features would be the benchmark.

[Luke H]

Originally Posted by Alan Owen

Spencer,
Is the back completely solid? I had an identical one which was a repro and completely flat backed with no sweat hole. I have put mine on the cav thread for comparison.
Alan

Alan,

Playing devils advocate, does it necessarily need to have sweat holes to be genuine? I thought the 27th was a second world war raised unit... I may be wrong as cavalry isn't my thing and I left my books in Wales. But dating from that period manufacturing techniques could get by without braze holes, or was there only one specific maker of the badge being cavalry (hence small numbers) and the manufacturer of that die used sweat holes still?

Cheers,

Luke

[Alan O]

Luke,

That is a fair point. However in this case the copies are found with completely flat backs while the firmin ones have a hole. If you see my other thread you will see another unknown makers one as well - agin with brasing hole. I am afraid that the copies are so good that i would not trust any solid backed one unless it was die struck and marked with the correct stamp like Keith's. Compare it to a known taxicar fake and you see the same wide head and the same style of 27 numeral.

Alan

[Keith Blakeman]

The semi-bimetal one (ie all brass pennons) tend to be made by Firmin and are always die stamped and not smooth backed and as Alan has pointed out the elephants head isn't as wide as that on the copies.

However Gaunt & Firmin also both produced the 23rd H (for certain) and I think the 22nd DG, 24th L so I wouldn't be surprised if they both did all the WW2 newly raised cavalry regiments. I've yet to see a semi-bimetal Gaunt one though.

I posted on the other thread all my examples including a newly purchased Gaunt full bimetal in the hope our new 27L member can make a few comments.

[loupie1961]

Is it good? Is it a restrike? thank you for your opinions!

[2747andy]

loupie1961,
it's a ringer (sorry) as pointed out in previous posts! I can post some nice photos of the "Real McCoy" as a guide in the morning!

Andy

[2747andy]

Loupie1961,
here are three examples, one 100% genuine, one which I hope is OK and the last a copy. The Genuine one (Picture 2), although it looks like it was made this morning is an "All Brass Pennons" example, made by "FIRMIN LONDON" with a nice stamp to the slider and a thin horizontal braze/sweat hole to the rear of the Elephants head. The one with the Bi metal pennons (Picture 4), (I think it is OK) has a hollowed out profile to the rear and although it does not show too well in the photo, has a filled up braze/sweat hole to the rear of the elephants head. The third badge is the "All Brass Pennons" (Picture 3), version with a flat back (crown area where slider is attached has a slight depression). IMO the easiest way to spot an original from a copy is the Elephants head, it is wider on the copies and the ribs on the trunk are large and start between the Elephants eyes, with the last part of the trunk being smooth. On originals, the ribs are much thinner, start below the eyes and run the full length of the trunk and the vertical lines on the pennons are finer and more numerous . These are my observation only!

Andy

[Viletone]

The vertical lines on the pennons are finer and more numerous on genuine ones too, something I hadn't noticed in the past.

I like the look of the bimetal (pennons) one.

[Keith Blakeman]

I know the subject of the 27th Lancers had been brought up here before, but nothing ver seems to be concluded.

Does anyone have a definitive die-stamped full bimetal version, ideally with a vertical shank or are those smooth backed ones with a slotted sweathole behind the elephants head but none to the pennons accepted as being accepted as genuine, (because I'm not convinved they are!).

[Paddy]

Keith

I have posted a few pictures below of the 2 versions I have. The version with all GM pennons (Butler slider) I am just about 100% convinced is a modern restrike. As for the one with Bi-Metal pennons, I'm happy to listen to opinions.

Paddy

[jim a]

I think I've done my homework on this one and believe it to be O.K. FYI there is a sweathole behind the elephants head. How did I do?

[jim a]

sorry for the sideways photos

[2747andy]

10/10 go to the top of the class!

Andy