Royal Montreal regiment France 1944

[Histjunky]

Hello,

I found this forum in search of a question. I have a group that reenacts WW2 here in the US. We have an event coming up in May and would like to portray the Royal Montreal regiment after the falaise pocket. I am looking for information on what unit insignia they would have worn at this time. They were re-flagged as the 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment at some point and were assigned to the 1st Army. So my question is did they wear:

Unit Insignia
1st Army Patch

or

Unit insignia
Divisional patch

I Know there was a company at the leopold canal in Oct of 44 with units from the 3rd Div. Now is it possible the Regiment attached Companies to Div?

Any help would be most appreciated we want to portray this unit properly. Also any pictures would be most helpful.

Thanks
Chris

[Bill A]

Hello Chris, You have picked a unit that had a unique role in 1st Cdn Army. The Royal Montreal Regiment was tasked as the defence battalion for the 1st Cdn Army HQ. In that role it had both infantry and armoured cars. (I am not sure of the W.E. but I think it was a squdron of armoured cars and a company of infantry. ISTBC on that.) They did not serve as 32nd Recce in that capacity.
Here are the GO's:
Serial
No.
44 32nd Reconnaissance Regiment (Royal Montreal Regiment), C.A.C.
Authorized: GO 187/43 - Effective 25 Jan 43, Converted & Redesignated: GO 345/44 - Effective 12 Apr 44
Converted & Redesignated: Serial No. 44* - First Army Headquarters Defence Company (Royal Montreal
Regiment) - GO 345/44 - Effective 12 Apr 44
Serial
No.
44* First Army Headquarters Defence Company (Royal Montreal Regiment)
Authorized: GO 345/44 - Effective 12 Apr 44, Converted & Redesignated: GO 331/45 - Effective 5 Apr 45
Converted & Redesignated: Serial No. 2363* - First Canadian Army Headquarters Defence Battalion
(Royal Montreal Regiment) - GO 331/45 - Effective 5 Apr 45.

The unit wanted battle experience, so during the time the Canadian Army was fighting in the canals and dykes along the Breskens Pocket, the R M R's were fed into the fighting.

As the Defence Battalion, they wore the plain 1st Canadian Army patches, printed pattern. (These are the easy ones to find.) And they wore the Royal Montreal Regiment shoulder titles without the MG for regimental identification. (Not the post war pattern with the Canada.)

[Voltigeur]

Chris,here's a photograph of members of the RMR.Not the best but there are only four available on the LAC website.
Jo
http://www.collectionscanada.gc.ca/d...oviqqavs023t31

[Michael Reintjes]

Are those black berets?

[Bill A]

Hello Mike, Yes, they are black, as the RMR's had an armoured car squadron in the defence battalion.

[servicepub]

Here's one from my files. Just visible is the First Canadian Army formation patch.

[edstorey]

Yes - black berets in the LAC image; but they are certainly not standing in front of a Staghound.

[Histjunky]

I Cannot thank all who replied enough for the information and Pictures it has been most helpful! However I am still lacking information on what a HQ Defense company did.

I don’t understand what HQ defense means?
Providing security for the HQ position?
Are they also used as runners?
Bringing/issuing HQ orders to their Artillery regiments?,
Observing front lines positions, observing for intell for HQ?
Interfacing with other Army command bodies?
Would they be providing security escort for all officers traveling to Fro other Army HQs?
Would they be front line spotters for the artillery regiments?
The fact they had a Armored car squadron, what would that be used for?
Traveling around the field of operations gathering intell & observing?


Also what is made of this patch with the RMR on the 1st Canadian Army Patch taken from here:
http://www.canadiansoldiers.com/orga...sf/1starmy.htm



Also according to From D-day to VE-Day The Candian Soldier by Jean BOUCHERY pg 10

The Unit also used a vehicle symbol of 459 in white on a green over blue square which is in step with Canadian markings as of 10 June 44


In regards to the black beret could it be possible that like the Winnipeg Rifles they retained the black beret or is it possible that some wore khaki and some black?




Just trying to get to the bottom of things. Thanks again in advance!

Chris

[Histjunky]

Ok in my searching I found this which is the first solid mention of the company serving with the 3rd div. Now the question is did they wear the 3rd div patch at this time as they exchanged with the Regina rifles..hmmmmm

Taken from: http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30078716

"Regiment converted from infantry to machine-gun unit December 1936 and mobilized as such on 1 September 1939. Assigned to 3rd Brigade of 1st Infantry Division. (1st Canadian Division mobilized on the pre-1938 British organization, which assigned a machine gun battalion to each brigade.) The Regiment went to the UK with the Division in December 1939. On arrival, the Division re-organized on current British lines and the three brigade machine gun regiments became Divisional troops. When VII Corps was formed in July 1940 as an anti-invasion force the Regiment was assigned as Corps troops and stayed in this role when the Corps was converted in October 1940 to The Canadian, later 1st Canadian, Corps. In January 1943 the Regiment was ordered to re-organize and became 32nd Canadian Reconnaissance Regiment, Canadian Armoured Corps, under command 1st Canadian Army. This unit was disbanded in March 1944 in response to a shortage of manpower and the lack of a need for an Army-level recce unit. Interests acting on behalf of the Regiment caused its revival and at the beginning of April it was reformed as First Canadian Army Headquarters Defence Company. The Regiment landed in Normandy on 28 July 1944. In September the Company exchanged with a Company of the Regina Rifles (7 Brigade, 3 Div.) to gain battle experience, first seeing action at Cap Gris Nez on 17 September and subsequently in the capture of Calais. On 6 October 1944 the Company took part in an attack across the Leopold Canal. They reverted to Army HQ Defence duties around 11 October. The Company was raised, at least notionally, to Battalion status in May 1945 and returned to Canada where it was disbanded in September 1945. (A 2nd Battalion served in the Reserve Army.) (To be completed)"

Chris

[Bill A]

Hello Chris, As suggested in the Canadian Soldiers Forum, many of your questions will be answered by getting hold of a copy of the Royal Montreal Regiment's Second World War history. The unit had a convoluted evolution, being mobilized to serve as an Machine Gun battalion, then being re-organized as a Recce Bn, nearly disbanded as surplus to needs, then re-organized as the 1st Cdn Army Defence Bn.
In answer to your questions about the role, primarily the battalion was a security force, making sure that the army HQ was not infiltrated by many kinds of threats. In the unit history, the role was described as "guards, escorts and duty parties". They may have been used as messengers, but not often, and likely only in exceptional circumstances. Their tasking was not focused on transmitting/transferring orders, nor did they act as FOO's. They mostly operated in the rear echelon of the army, and other than the period in the fall of 1944, were not deployed as front line troops. The type of warfare in the SWW required a high degree of mobility, and the armoured car component was often deployed as a screen, patrolling around the location of the HQ.
In reference to the patches, the Bouchery reference should be used with care, it is not comprehensive. The history of Canadian formation patches and shoulder titles is confusing to say the least. During the SWW, the Canadian patching system changed several times. In 1943, the scheme for armoured units was the Canadian Armoured Corps shoulder title worn in combination with an imposed formation patch. E.g. the formation patch had the regimental abbreviation printed on the sign. This is clearly seen on the patches for1 Canadian Armoured Brigade and 5 Canadian Armoured Division. The practice was supposed to be extended to all armoured units, so the RMR's as 32 Recce Bn were to wear the CAC title and the imposed formation patch. They were tasked as 1 Cdn Army Recce Bn at that time, which explains the 1 Cdn Army RMR patch. In early January 1944, the policy for patching changed, and CMHQ wanted the system simplified. Imposed patches were costly and not portable between formations if a unit was moved form one formation to another. (As had happened in January 1943, with the re-organization of the armourded divisions and the creation of 2 Cdn Corps.) At that time (1944) they went to a plain formation patch worn in combination with the appropriate regimental shoulder title. Existing stocks of patches were to be used up, not discarded. (IF the unit remained in the same formation.) So, the RMR patch was made for a unit that was essentially stood down, but when revived, the RMR's were into the shoulder title and plain patch scheme. The imposed RMR patch was only authorized for a very short period. There is only one 1 Cdn Army RMR patch in existence of which I am aware. They do not appear to have been issued.
The vehicle in Clive's image is an Otter Light Recce Car. I am not sure what the war establishment of the RMR was, and they were unique. The image may be before the Staghound came into service, or they may have had both Otter's and Staghounds on the establishment.

[Histjunky]

Bill,

Thank you for this information it has been most helpful! If I find any more information on the 3rd div patch i will post it here to share with everyone.

Thank you
Chris

[Car_Commander]

The vehicle the Gen Crerar and the RMR crew are stood in front of (from Voltigeur's link) is a Daimler MkI Armoured Car, not a Staghound as anotated.

Regards,
Les.

[Bill A]

Thanks Les.
Chris, some thoughts on the patching in the Leopold Canal period. It is not likely that the RMR company switched to the 3 CID patch. They were only on short term loan, and with the shortages of insignia, it is unlikely they would be issued the new set just to wear for a short period of time. Additionally, it is likely that they would have to draw the patches from the Regina Rifles stores, and as indicated, insignia was getting short in supply by the fall. This is speculation, and it would be great to have documentation.

[Bill A]

Found the answer. In the RMR regimental history, page 170, it is noted:
achieving its great desire, the Company carried the badges and battle-patches of the Royal Montreal Regiment into action against the enemy.

[Cantiaci]

I have seen this 11 year old thread, do the titles ever come up? I have been looking for one for many years. What would I have to pay IF I found one? Mark