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  #1  
Old 21-11-20, 12:45 AM
lettman lettman is offline
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Default 4th Bombay Grenadiers question

Which badge did the 4/4th Bombay Grenadiers wear in Burma in 1944-45? I believe the gm grenade with wm horse of the old 101st was reintroduced at some stage to replace the grenade with the wm 4, but I have conflicting information about when that occurred. Any clarification would be very welcome.
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  #2  
Old 24-11-20, 04:48 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
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I too would like to know just when the 4 and the horse badges were used.

CB
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  #3  
Old 27-11-20, 01:30 PM
peter monahan peter monahan is offline
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I toook the liberty od sharing the question on another froum and here is an answer. Ashok Nath, BTW, ex-IA Armoured Corps, is one of the world's leading experts on IA badges.

• Mandeep Singh Bajwa
I think the grenade with the Horse of Hannover was introduced in October 1945 when the regiment became the Indian Grenadiers.

Ashok Nath
4/4th Bombay Grenadiers ( former 109th Infy and previously the 9th Bombay Infy) disbanded in 1930, was re-raised in 1941 and the badge adopted was a flaming Grenade with numeral 4, changing to the device of a galloping horse upon the ball of the grenade in 1945, when the title "Bombay Grenadiers" was replaced by "Indian Grenadiers" for all battalions, the 2nd Grenadiers continued with their Sphinx and Prince of Wales plumes till 1950. The "Horse " which has always and originally meant to represent the white horse of Hanover, is often in contemporary writings twisted (for politically motives) to represent a "supposed white steed" of Tipu Sultan which is historically inaccurate. Interestingly when the 4th Grenadiers group was formed in 1922, there were only 2 battalions the 1st and 2nd who were Grenadiers the others 3, 4, and 5th were not. The 1st had the horse device, the 2nd the sphinx and plumes of POW, the 3rd ,4th and 5th battalions wore the numeral 4th but with some serious misgivings and had individual variations to their badges into the late 1920's, meanwhile Ordnance issued the battalions with plain brass flaming grenades (which was rejected by most battalions). The Horse of Hanover usually appears in in two positions (prancing" and galloping int he Grenadier devices, the former is the older version. Complex?.. yes, but that is the history of the evolution of Indian army badges.
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  #4  
Old 27-11-20, 08:27 PM
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Wmr-RHB Wmr-RHB is offline
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Thanks Peter, and through you: thank Ashok Nath. Very interesting reading.
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  #5  
Old 29-11-20, 09:06 AM
Piffer Piffer is offline
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Default 4th Grenadiers and Indian army collections

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter monahan View Post
I toook the liberty od sharing the question on another froum and here is an answer. Ashok Nath, BTW, ex-IA Armoured Corps, is one of the world's leading experts on IA badges.

• Mandeep Singh Bajwa
I think the grenade with the Horse of Hannover was introduced in October 1945 when the regiment became the Indian Grenadiers.

Ashok Nath
4/4th Bombay Grenadiers ( former 109th Infy and previously the 9th Bombay Infy) disbanded in 1930, was re-raised in 1941 and the badge adopted was a flaming Grenade with numeral 4, changing to the device of a galloping horse upon the ball of the grenade in 1945, when the title "Bombay Grenadiers" was replaced by "Indian Grenadiers" for all battalions, the 2nd Grenadiers continued with their Sphinx and Prince of Wales plumes till 1950. The "Horse " which has always and originally meant to represent the white horse of Hanover, is often in contemporary writings twisted (for politically motives) to represent a "supposed white steed" of Tipu Sultan which is historically inaccurate. Interestingly when the 4th Grenadiers group was formed in 1922, there were only 2 battalions the 1st and 2nd who were Grenadiers the others 3, 4, and 5th were not. The 1st had the horse device, the 2nd the sphinx and plumes of POW, the 3rd ,4th and 5th battalions wore the numeral 4th but with some serious misgivings and had individual variations to their badges into the late 1920's, meanwhile Ordnance issued the battalions with plain brass flaming grenades (which was rejected by most battalions). The Horse of Hanover usually appears in in two positions (prancing" and galloping int he Grenadier devices, the former is the older version. Complex?.. yes, but that is the history of the evolution of Indian army badges.
.

Thanks very interesting information....I believe Capt. Nath was at one time working on the Infantry regiments of the Indian army something along the lines of his earlier magnum opus "IZZAT", known to some of us. He is also what one can call a polymath with expertise and interest in numerous fields and his his collection is seen to be believed , had privilege of viewing his private collection to the regiments of the Indian army... also viewed Field Marshal John Chapple's Indian army collection at Sandhurst which is open to public, both excellent collections but arranged differently. In the case of the former the collection is arranged according to the different periods of the Indian Army while as in the later its all lumped up under the final designation of the regiment as it was in 1947 and sometimes can be confusing. Tom
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  #6  
Old 30-11-20, 07:05 AM
lettman lettman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter monahan View Post
I toook the liberty od sharing the question on another froum and here is an answer. Ashok Nath, BTW, ex-IA Armoured Corps, is one of the world's leading experts on IA badges.

Mandeep Singh Bajwa
I think the grenade with the Horse of Hannover was introduced in October 1945 when the regiment became the Indian Grenadiers.

Ashok Nath
4/4th Bombay Grenadiers ( former 109th Infy and previously the 9th Bombay Infy) disbanded in 1930, was re-raised in 1941 and the badge adopted was a flaming Grenade with numeral 4, changing to the device of a galloping horse upon the ball of the grenade in 1945, when the title "Bombay Grenadiers" was replaced by "Indian Grenadiers" for all battalions, the 2nd Grenadiers continued with their Sphinx and Prince of Wales plumes till 1950. The "Horse " which has always and originally meant to represent the white horse of Hanover, is often in contemporary writings twisted (for politically motives) to represent a "supposed white steed" of Tipu Sultan which is historically inaccurate. Interestingly when the 4th Grenadiers group was formed in 1922, there were only 2 battalions the 1st and 2nd who were Grenadiers the others 3, 4, and 5th were not. The 1st had the horse device, the 2nd the sphinx and plumes of POW, the 3rd ,4th and 5th battalions wore the numeral 4th but with some serious misgivings and had individual variations to their badges into the late 1920's, meanwhile Ordnance issued the battalions with plain brass flaming grenades (which was rejected by most battalions). The Horse of Hanover usually appears in in two positions (prancing" and galloping int he Grenadier devices, the former is the older version. Complex?.. yes, but that is the history of the evolution of Indian army badges.
Fantastic information -- far exceeding what I expected. Many thanks to Ashok and Mandeep for the information, and to Peter for taking the initiative of re-posting the question where it would get such a detailed answer.
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