17th lancers or 17th-21st ?

[signalman]

Is Harry 17th or 17th-21st Lancers? Phil.

[Sonofacqms]

I would say Harry was in the 17th Lancers if the photo was pre 1922, the collars look almost like anodised, such was the spit and polish in those days.

[signalman]

I dont have a date on this i suspect, as you say earlier rather than later,those collar's do shine, smart chap Harry.Regards Phil.

[cbuehler]

Pre ww1 17th Lancers without doubt. He is wearing the old cavalry serge frock that went out in 1914 and never came back. Note the white regimental facing colour of the collar tabs. These peculiar tabs were worn by some cavalry regiments on their frocks in lieu of a full collar in facing colour.

CB

[cbuehler]

I further noticed that he is wearing cap lines. In this case, it is an affectation for the photo opportunity and only worn with full dress. What would the RSM say!

CB

[signalman]

CB thanks for your observations.I have run a rough check on this chap and on re-reading the card found his name to be Harry Washington,i checked the medal index cards for Washington and i found a Harry Thomas 2033 Corporal Lancers.Later Essex, Lieutenant.I am reasonably sure that this is one and the same 17th Lancer.The only thing i have not done is open the mic card as funds are tight at present.I therefore think you are correct that this was taken just prior to 1914,when he was a Lance Corporal.You mention the cap lines which, and i am no expert on cavalry orders of dress,i would think were only worn in full dress.Regards Phil.

[Lancer 17]

Hi,

I have been through my 17 Lancers related library but cant find any photos of a 17 L wearing this uniform, however I have photos of 21st Lancers wearing the uniform.

The uniform is the dark blue serge frock coat, it is worn with white collar tabs with Motto collar dogs and shoulder chains. The 21 L photos show a full French Blue collar, in one photo cap lines are worn and in the two others no cap lines are worn, both these photos are from the regimental collection. The photos are dated 1900, 1905 and 1911/12.

At this time full dress was still worn and the frock coat was undress uniform, see the reprint of the 1900 Dress Regulations which describe and illustrate both the full dress and the frock coat with shoulder chains.

Looking at the photograph (which l have printed out to add to my collection) l would say that it is between the Boer War and the First world War as he wears no medals or ribbons. He has got himself all bulled up for the photo, polished every thing he can, waxed his moe and greased his hair.

Cheers

Phil.

[GriffMJ]

Ref: 21st EI Lancer's Uniform c1908-1914
Garendon Camp (Leicestershire) 1909
Standing at the back row in the middle, Sgt. Pring of the 21st Lancers. He was providing "Scouting" expertise to the Yeomanry during this Camp.

1031 Sgt A E Stafford can be seen sitting on the front row second from the right, at annual Camp (Garendon)1909. He was killed in action at Frezenberg 6 years later. As you can see (just) in the photo he wears the South Africa medal with five bars, 65th (2nd/LY) Coy, 17th Btn. (That Medal is now in the Sgt's Mess at B (LDYPAO) Squadron the Royal Yeomanry at HQ in Leicester).


Captain Hon. R B F Robertson, 21st "E I" Lancers
Leicester Yeomanry Adjutant from 1907 to 1911. Lt. Roberts served in South Africa (Gloucestershire Hussars Yeomanry and 21st Lancers) where he was first acquainted with the LIY officers in Harrismith, SA.

[Lancer 17]

Good one or is that two Griff. Keep up the good work.

Cheers

Phil.

[1stTankie]

Gentlemen

The photograph of Harry Washington wearing the 17th Lancers' frock with those "large" collar badges came as a surprise. I had always imagined them to be the more usual smaller size. I now need to re-assess what I had always assumed to be Cap mottos with lugs.

If someone has a matching pair of these badges I should be most grateful if they would post some measuements please.

Best wishes

Gordon

[signalman]

Due to the renewed interest in 'Harry' i have whipped out the card to see if i have missed anything, but to no avail. it wasn't sent through the post so no stamp or postmark just a vague dedication and a later addition 'Uncle Harry Washington 17-21 lancers'.Regards Phil.

[1stTankie]

Originally Posted by signalman

Is Harry 17th or 17th-21st Lancers? Phil.

The picture of Harry Washington posted by Phil shows him wearing "large" collar badges. These are far bigger than those normally associated with the regiment.
I come back to the question raised in my previous post, "are these large collar badges the same size as the cap badge?" Are those cap badges I have with lugs actually collar badges?
Can someone please post the dimensions of a matching pair of "large" collar badges?

Best wishes

Gordon

[Lancer 17]

Hi Gordon

I cant say for sure but the collars shown in the photo may in fact be Field Service cap Mottos of the period. I have 3 of these with lugs that are 31 mm from the top of the skull to the base of the scroll below the L of GLORY.

Hope that this helps.

Regards

Phil.

[1stTankie]

Hi Phil

That could be a strong possibility. I have invited Griff to do one of his magic photographic comparisons with the Harry Washington picture and the badges depicted below. The larger badge is a cap sized one and the other is, as you suggested, the Field Service Cap version.

I have also received a PM from 3748 Hussar stating that he will post details of these collars when he is next back in UK. I look forward to seeing the results.

Best wishes

Gordon

[GriffMJ]

For Gordon (Picture to scale: Taken from assumed button width of 24mm):-

31 mm from the top of the skull to the base of the scroll below the L of GLORY.
35mm to the tips of the scroll ends.