Motto for Field Service Cap

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Griff,
£500!!!!!!!!!!!!! I did'nt want a gold one!
Now in a state of shock, Frank

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Frank

Genuine Standard Firmin or Gaunt Wm. = between £12-£40 (if you know what to look for amongst the vast multitude of crap)
Genuine HMd Silver = between £250 - £500 (If you can find one)

[Tinto]

Thanks, Griff and others for all your comments. Mottos aren't the easiest to classify.
Cheers, Tinto

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Griff,
I have to say that I really can't imagine officers like Richard Sheridan ever wearing a white metal badge!
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Thanks Frank

I think the Standard size Motto seen in those Officer photos are just ordinary Wm. with loops...... the HMd Silver Motto would have been reserved for the Dress cap. The khaki SD Cap would have a heavy guage plated or Wm. Motto similar to the HM Silver.

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Griff,
I have to say that I really can't imagine officers like Richard Sheridan ever wearing a white metal badge!
Regards Frank

Frank

Even the most Aloof of the "What O!" Ruperts would find it hard to wear these loops in anything other than his dress cap

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Griff,
No, I really don't see anyone wearing the attached, on an fs cap!
Regards Frank

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Griff,
No, I really don't see anyone wearing the attached, on an fs cap!
Regards Frank

Frank

This is the same Officer Motto (date period early Cold War) by Gaunt .... Top HM silver 1946 = Dress; Middle Plated = SD Cap; Bottom Wm. = Beret ;

additional ......Other Ranks Wm. Beret and the Plated Officer Motto in the SD Cap.

* This Motto was in use for 18 years until, in 1964, Gaunt make a New Motto and also the advent of the AA Motto from Gaunt.

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Griff,
I think a wearer would perhaps have to modify them if he had a problem with the length of the loops on those particular badges.
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Frank

This is the same Officer Motto (date period early Cold War) by Gaunt .... Top HM silver = Dress; Middle Plated = SD Cap; Bottom Wm. = Beret

[Robthereiver]

Griff

I will have to dig out my old notes on this subject to see what images I have, I will let you know.

I would like to mention a few points on the O/R's FSC.

The FSC went in and out of favour, as it did I believe in between the 17L time in SA and India. It was reintroduce in 1907, and then seems to have disappeared from use until the 17/21L tour of India in the 1930's.

The biggest issue, as with so many points, is the lack of photographic evidence particularly pre WWI.

I was advised by both Gordon Dine and the late David Linaker that it was their opinion, that these 1st pattern collars were worn in the O/R's FSC, and I know many other collectors who would agree. However, what evidence they had to draw that conclusion I do not know.

It is interesting that the SA image of the Officer 1902 you've posted is wearing a full size motto.
The significance of that however is debatable, as the Officers use of the FSC was uninterrupted as far as I know, and is a different 'Beast' and may not relate to what the O/R's wore, but granted it is possible.

Rob

Originally Posted by GriffMJ

Rob

Can you show any images of this size Motto being worn on any headdress pre 1960? All the FFSC Officer images pre 1960 that I have show the full size Motto. I have one WW2 image that shows the very small Collar Motto on the Officers FFScap, 1945 (see below).

I have also attached a photo of a 17th/21stL B Sqn captain in Meerut, India, in 1939. He has a full size Motto in his FFSC.

I have also attached an image of a 17thL Officer in 1902, SA, that is wearing the FFScap with a full size Motto.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

I have a hunch that the small Officer "beret" motto came into use in the late 1960s onwards ......... at the time of the new AA from Gaunt. Being the Officer badge it was also worn in the FFScap in Barrack dress and Mess kit. The new full sized Gaunt HMd (1964) was worn in the Dress cap and the plated version in the SD Cap..... for new Officers...... obviously up to the Officer if he used the HM in both Caps or just purchased a plated etc...

Loop position on the 1964 Gaunt HMd silver is standard and not in the hip ends...... they are still long loops though. I only have a front image of the plated Motto, of the same, so I cant show you the loops.

Additional Photos: 1964 Hmd Silver (Marked London but HM in B'HAM) and the first Gaunt AA Motto...... and the Plated officer SD cap Motto of the same. A later "Mock" Silver produced by Gaunt for Taylors & Outfitters. A Photo from 1983 showing 17/21L Officers on a visit to 20 Sqn (Jauguars) RAF ....showing the post 1960 Wm. Officer beret badge and the standard size (Post 1960 plated?) in the SD Cap.

* I think there was one big "make" of the silver HM'd by Gaunt in 1964.... I am not sure if you will find another with a later HM date (Has someone got a later one?) .... "IF" there is one it will have a different back image and it will look like one of the later AA backs (The plated motto probably has a different back to the HMd.... probably the same as the Mock Silver illustrated?).
** Being a post 1964 production AA.... this is why we dont find AA Mottos with the large "J.R.GAUNT LONDON" mark as seen on the late 1950's production AA's in other Regiments. (as seen on the early cold war Wm. Motto by Gaunt in post #21)
*** ADDITIONAL 22/10/13: Far right, the post 1964 plated SD Cap Motto.... showing the back image.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

With regard to the reference to the Other Ranks wearing the collar in the FFScap...... here are a few images from the 1930s in India (First pic in UK - Tpr B Boyd). I have more, including a Group photo showing All ranks with FFSCaps and the standard size Motto.

I have also attached a photo of a 17L Trooper in 1900..... his FFSCap has a full size Motto.

I have also attached a post 1920 L/Cpl in a khaki FFScap with a standard full size motto.

I have also attached a 17th/21stL from the late 1960s with a FFSCap with a standard full size AA Motto.

* I do have an image of a post 1960 WO2s FFSCap with a small chrome motto in it and also a Trooper in the late 1960s wearing the FFScap (in SD) with the very small AA collar on the band.

[GriffMJ]

Photos of the large collar in use.

Left = 17L killed in Ireland in 1920, OSD large collar
Middle = 17L L/Cpl Great War period, large Wm. Collars
Right = 17L VC winner, large Wm. Collars.
Furthest right = 1939 Film costume 17th Lancer Tunic with the large collar, used during the 1939 filming of The Light That Failed which starred Ronald Colman, Walter Huston and Ida Lupino.

There are three or four variants of the same size of collar that can be identified by subtle difference.

* I have just realised that what I thought was a modern Officers beret Motto is the old Gaunt GRV Other Ranks large collar.... see far right (against the Officers OSD collar - also seen in the 1910 Gaunt Catalogue)

[GriffMJ]

Originally Posted by tonyb

Tinto,
I have a similar size motto lugged, I've hung onto in the hope it's for a FSC. So I'd be interested in the outcome of this one.
Cheers Tony.

Tony

Having taken another look at your image in post #2 ..... it is the same as one I have (GRV Collar). Does it have short "D" shaped loops at 7mm?

H = 31mm x W= 40mm
"D" Loops E/W = 30mm
Loop length = 7mm

[GriffMJ]

Tinto

Yours is the type that I have shown underneath your own..... these are two very similar collar mottoes but they have different back images and different scroll ends ... see below.

[GriffMJ]

Rob

This is a possible candidate for an old FFScap Motto..... its marked "SILVER" in top rear of the skull (You can just see it), its 38.5mm wide and the loops are long "O" loops placed in the hip ends .... like the modern WO2 small chrome motto (but not the same). Not sure if the mark is old or modern.

It belongs to forum member "fearnaught"...... the image is from a conversation a couple of years ago (27-08-11, 04:48 PM) ......the Motto appeared within a group photo. The type set, on the scroll, is very similar to the (my ref) "Long Nose" & "No Ears" Motto.

[Tinto]

Hi Griff,
Thanks for your meticulous input. Shows that there were several variations in the collars as well.
A big ask, but would you be able to create an album with images showing the chronological sequence of both Motto caps and collars?
Cheers, Tinto