different fixtures

[KLR]

These three badges were produced / worn by the King's between 1926 and 1950.

The first two are from the same die.
WHY are there two locations for the loops ?? On the scroll <156> and on the body of the horse <157>

Is it a chronological matter or is it to do with the headgear that the badges would have adorned.


The last badge <158> is clearly from a different die which might be a later die.


I'd appreciate any opinions on this matter
many thanks
J



(I cannot crop the photograph further than this / don't know how to !)

[Alan O]

Usually the fittings are due to the type of hat. In this case I cannot explain why there are lugs as the peaked cap was the norm from 1926-40 and then it was replaced by the khaki side cap followed by the General Service cap and then the beret.

I would have expected the badge to have had a vertical shank in all cases.

[KLR]

Thanks Alan, I had thought that loops were more useful on a 1920s side cap, GS cap or beret - though the slider was used with a clip from the 1940s. Maybe the loops on scroll (ie low) for a peaked cap but loops on body (ie middle) better on a floppy thing like a GS or beret ?

[Noxin]

Are <156> and <157> commonly found with loops or are these examples unusual in that respect?

N.

[Phil2M]

I wonder if it was as simple as the higher lugs were more stable. Having the lugs low and wide apart means the badge can topple forward, under its own weight, the issue would be overcome very simply by telling the guys doing the braizing to adjust the lug location.

[KLR]

Yes Noxin - loops for that die. Not sure about the last one.
Phil, I agree - higher ones for something floppy (eg beret) and lower ones for a peaked cap ??? Does this indicate a period of change ?

[Alan O]

The higher lugs were the norn for the Victorian/ Edwardian badges. Clelary these are later but I don't think the badge fixings were specifically changed for either berets or peaked caps.

[Phil2M]

I think its possible that similar could still apply on a stiffer headdress, or the badge could be snagged and pulled downwards leading to easier breakage.

[Luke H]

Is there any chance of close up pics front and back? Are they Gaunt or Firmin’s?

The void shapes and attachments of the legs appears different on all three. Interesting the two on loops have a partial reverse stamp on the scroll but the slidered badge has smooth scroll.

As Alan says I would expect OR badges of this era to only be found with sliders.

Re the two different loop positions, again as Alan points out higher was often the case on Victorian/Edwardian era badges à la Arty gun badges and in the extreme KC VB DLIs etc., however, I doubt any inferences can be drawn in relation to this particular case.

I also doubt they would be officially ordered with intention for wear on different headdress.

Possibly an outfitters catering for ORs or NCOs could explain their existence? Such badges would not necessarily be to WO specifications.

[KLR]

Actually there is a complicated history to this.
The first two are actually Jennens dies - they were taken over by Gaunt and stamped GAUNT LATE JENNENS. The Gaunt one is a .... Gaunt die.


J&Co actually produced this particular design before G took them over in 1925. Though whether these were produced before or after the take-over.


It is / was thought that J badges (of this design) was only produced for officer's badges - S&G and as OSD - BUT this one can only be post 1926 as that when that design appeared (as WO Pattern 10042/1926) not a J&C0 die.


Yes, there's a big debate - started by Jelly - about one piece with overlays or just one piece - all three are two piece.