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  #16  
Old 01-12-08, 10:36 PM
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I differ slightly from the above article on the cloth titles only as there may be some evidence that a select few types of clth titles MAY HAVE been manufactured after the disbandment of the unit for private purchase for returning soldiers.There are quite a few repros of the cloth title and all must be carefully examined as most if not all are post war and some outright fakes.
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  #17  
Old 01-12-08, 10:43 PM
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Ray,your french is getting better. It's fils de fusil.
Jo
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  #18  
Old 01-12-08, 10:51 PM
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Michael, I just noticed that the right "foot" of the original roo is different from the repro. Just me or am I seeing things ?
Jo
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"There truly exists but one perfect order: that of cemeteries. The dead never complain and they enjoy their equality in silence." -

“There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.”
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  #19  
Old 01-12-08, 11:03 PM
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IIRC from the last time I heard something about this badge on the Canadian Soldier Website an orginal goes for well over $100.00 US. If the seller of this badge thought he could get away with it he would be asking the same price as an original. This has got to be a repro.
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  #20  
Old 02-12-08, 01:58 AM
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Well ! this turned out to be a very informative thread, you fellows are a credit to the forum. Ray
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  #21  
Old 02-12-08, 02:49 AM
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Michael, I just noticed that the right "foot" of the original roo is different from the repro. Just me or am I seeing things ?
Jo
Hi Jo...No you're quite right.Tony has just pointed out some obvious differences. The badges are completely different and there are many small variances.The quickest way to tell between these is the oval and round "O".
Good eye there, cheers,Mike.
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  #22  
Old 02-12-08, 03:11 AM
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Thanks, Michael.I always go by the "O",it's the obvious and easier to check.
Regards.
Jo
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"There truly exists but one perfect order: that of cemeteries. The dead never complain and they enjoy their equality in silence." -

“There are things we know that we know,” “There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know.”
Donald Rumsfeld, before the Iraqi Invasion,2003.

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  #23  
Old 02-12-08, 08:53 PM
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Default re Soo Rifles

In response to a question from me, seller wrote that there is no maker mark on the reverse of this 51st Soo badge. I think that would be kind of an important thing to correct on a listing.

We have had a couple of good threads about genuine/restrike Soo Rifles badges, including this one.

To recap my thoughts, genuine Soos have lugs and a Gaunt maker plate. I have not heard of a Scully-made Soo (but then, there's lots I haven't heard about), which is why I asked the vendor for a peek at the badge back.

As a general comment not directed at any single vendor, I think there are a number of well-known, well-documented and well-differentiated restrikes/repros (the Soo, 1st APCR Kangaroos and Can Paras being most prevalent). Anyone dealing in badges regularly or in quantity is well aware of them -- and of the differences between them and legitimate badges.

I have seen very well-regarded, even revered, dealers (and not just eBay sellers) offer up known restrikes as genuine, which has really made me cringe and, privately at least, much diminished my estimation for them. I have seen other vendors clearly state that an item is a repro/restrike and offer it up as a filler. Nothing wrong with that, and my estimation for these folks' reliability improves in that regard. There's even a point to having a good restrike -- it gives you something to compare when you think you've come across the real deal -- but for expert dealers or knowledgeable collectors to 'spin' descriptions of dubious items to infer legitimacy where they know none exists, justifiably damages their reputations and (hopefully) their bottom line much more than any immediate gain on the sale of the clunker would ever warrant.
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  #24  
Old 16-12-08, 11:40 PM
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You can always find someone to counter the opinions of experts...

http://cgi.ebay.ca/First-Canadian-A-...1%7C240%3A1318

In the small print:

PLEASE NOTE A MINI CONTROVERSY STILL RAGES REGARDING WHICH OF THE TWO BADGES IS THAT MADE DURING THE WAR, AND THAT STRUCK POST WAR, DESPITE THE MAZEAS OPINION AND THAT OF OTHERS. EQUAL AND OPPOSITE OPINIONS BY NOTED COLLECTORS. I BELIEVE THIS BADGE WITH THE EAR, PAW AND ROUNDED O AS OPPOSED TO THE OVAL O IS THE ORIGINAL.

Last edited by whizzbang; 16-12-08 at 11:42 PM. Reason: added quote
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  #25  
Old 17-12-08, 12:10 AM
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He uses the Digger site as his reference, and this is another example of the poor reliability of the Digger site. The badge illustrated on that site is the post war striking, the same as being auctioned.

Last edited by Bill A; 17-12-08 at 01:01 AM.
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  #26  
Old 17-12-08, 03:20 AM
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Is there really even a controversy? There is a clear consensus of knowledgeable collectors on the forum as to which striking is original - if there was a controversy I'd have thought someone would have piped up by now...
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  #27  
Old 17-12-08, 03:21 AM
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Default hilarious...

"In the small print:"

"PLEASE NOTE A MINI CONTROVERSY STILL RAGES REGARDING WHICH OF THE TWO BADGES IS THAT MADE DURING THE WAR, AND THAT STRUCK POST WAR, DESPITE THE MAZEAS OPINION AND THAT OF OTHERS. EQUAL AND OPPOSITE OPINIONS BY NOTED COLLECTORS. I BELIEVE THIS BADGE WITH THE EAR, PAW AND ROUNDED O AS OPPOSED TO THE OVAL O IS THE ORIGINAL. "

A few problems with his theory....The oval O badge has been found numerous times in the possession of vets, on period trench art, and with worn uniforms, versus the fact that the Round O badge was available to me by the bagfull at 1 Pound sterling each back in the early 80's along with bags of Para Regt and various other Special Air service type badges....all of them in huge quantity and all of them repros. But, I guess if you want to believe it bad enough,it can become fact to some......
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  #28  
Old 17-12-08, 04:18 AM
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Default Controversy??!?

How did I miss this thread!? Well better late than never I suppose...

I agree wholeheartedly with Michael, there is no controversy. Any knowledgeable collector worth his salt knows the "Oval" O is the genuine wartime issue badge. Period.

I have personally known, talked to and seen the issued badges of over 20 veterans of this regiment from senior officers down to Troopers like my father. Every single one has been an "oval O". Some had more than one badge in their possession, again all "Oval O's". I also know a couple vets picked up type 2 badges (Round O's) while on holiday in England post 1970's. That speaks volumes as to what came when...

I am not sure just whom these skeptics are that this dealer claims are out there... I'd like to meet one? "Equal and opposite opinions" ??? This is just hot air on the part of this seller.

The exact origin of the "type 2" badge (or more importantly, the actual die) does comes into question and I despair we'll never know the exact truth. However, it is true that some type two badges can be found in a very yellow (cartridge) brass with stubby "Gaunt" type lugs as the type 1 wartime issue (and the Bronze OSD version). I have three examples of this type of badge in my collection, they are quite different in weight and thickness when compared to the more common "redish" gilding metal repro. Does this mean the type 2 die and these yellow brass strikings are contemporary to the type 1 badges? Maybe. Other than the evidence of wartime type lugs (which can easily be faked) there is no evidence to link them to the regiment or to wartime manufacture. Personally, I think it is doubtful as there was never any reason to create a second die during the war.

The regiment only ordered 1000 brass badges (avg. Strength was approx. 550 all ranks). According to correspondence between Gaunt and the regt's CO, Lt. Col. Churchill, all 1000 brass badges were stamped as of early January 1945. 500 were finished and ready to ship (rec'd early Feb.), the remaining 500 would be finished and shipped later (rec'd Mar.). paid for in Sterling by regimental funds. End story. At the regiment's disbandment in june 1945. Many men and officers connected to QM Stores took home small caches of left over cap badges and collar badges. This is also why there can still be found some absolute pristine examples of genuine badges.

A far more intriguing question in my mind is what happened to the original Gaunt (type 1) die and where is it now... !?
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  #29  
Old 17-12-08, 04:31 AM
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Default Elgin

Bill ..if ever get out to these parts I,d like to take you over to the Elgin Regt Museum..they have a lovely piece of trench art there with both the Elgin and 1CACR badges on it...Well polished and worn, but still a lovely piece indeed. I,ve got a photo of it around here somewhere if I can dig it out.
Cheers,Mike.
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  #30  
Old 17-12-08, 04:33 AM
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Default Lug comparisons

The first photo shows the lugs on a "type 2" die with "Gaunt" lugs. A very thin, yellow brass stamping. The badges above it are both type 1 in Brass and Bronze. Note they all have lugs that are very similar style, if not the very same.

The second photo is a comparison of type 2 badges left has the "Gaunt" lugs and the right is the common repro with long post, round opening lugs. Some repros I have seen have ridiculously long posts (over 3/4").

Bill.
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