Bristol Constabulary WR

[engr9266]

I think this is railway police (Great) WESTERN RAILWAY police.

[GTB]

Originally Posted by GTB

My other question is: did this Force originally wear brass headdress insignia, prior to the introduction of chroming?

Thanks in advance for comments

GTB

Reverting back to my initial thread query concerning brass element found in my WR badge.
I think it is plausible that at least a brass oval as in the centrepiece of my Bristol Constabulary badge may have been incorporated in early insignia. I am posting a brass QVC Bristol Constabulary button to back this up. I may be wrong, but after all we are on a learning curve here and there is no telling how many grounded facts have turned out to be bubbles.

GTB

[davidwyke]

Hi GTB

Technically brass but it's unlikely to have been worn as brass, much more likely to have been worn blackened. Older blackened brass police buttons are not unusual.

David

[GTB]

David,

That is in fact what the button appears to be. Whatever, i am querying whether the fact that brass/blackened brass buttons were worn, consequently black/blackened brass headdress badges would also possibly have been worn.
GTB

[altcar73]

I think David is right. I have several blackened brass police buttons which were usually worn on greatcoats etc. and yes, blackened brass badges were also worn.

Dave.

[davidwyke]

I agree with Dave, in some cases HP's (and perhaps occasionally cap badges) were blackened brass, same as some buttons. I think the fact that they were made of brass is incidental though really as they were intended to be "black" as far as uniform wear was concerned.

David




n

[GTB]

Taking this point a bit further, I would like to focus on normal shiny brass rather than blackened brass.

I have read (Ripley: "Police Buttons") that Police Fire Brigades either wore (1) their normal police force buttons; (2)these same buttons but in brass to match their brass helmets and insignia (italics mine); or (3) a completely separate design.

So getting back to my cap badge's originally-brass centrepiece, could it not have formed part of a Bristol Constabulary Fire Brigade helmet badge?

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by GTB

Taking this point a bit further, I would like to focus on normal shiny brass rather than blackened brass.

I have read (Ripley: "Police Buttons") that Police Fire Brigades either wore (1) their normal police force buttons; (2)these same buttons but in brass to match their brass helmets and insignia (italics mine); or (3) a completely separate design.

So getting back to my cap badge's originally-brass centrepiece, could it not have formed part of a Bristol Constabulary Fire Brigade helmet badge?

GTB,

Without digging out some reference books I'm not entirely sure that Bristol Constabulary ran the Fire Brigade. Notwithstanding that fact, your WR badge which you say was originally brass would have been worn by a police war reserve on a flat cap. The police war reserves were not "police firemen" but were, as explained earlier, replacements for "street duty" policemen who had been called to the colours.

Prior to 1941 and the introduction of the NFS, fire brigades were run by the local authority. Some were "stand alone" brigades and some formed part of the police force for the Borough or City etc.

Not all wore brass helmets. In Liverpool, the police fire brigade wore white metal helmets and their badges and buttons were identical to those worn by Liverpool Police, in other words white metal. That was the case with the majority of police fire brigades. Having collected UK police insignia continually since the early 1960's, I have never seen a brass police badge which has been made specifically for wear by a police fireman. Again as mentioned earlier in the thread, police forces in the UK have generally with the exception of the City of London and Wakefield (intermittently) always worn either white metal, black or chrome badges and buttons. Manufacturers stamped badges out of brass or white metal (the base metal) and then chromed them before supplying them to the respective forces. Or blacked over the base metal if so required by the ordering force. Sometimes, as an economy measure the forces themselves have had white metal badges (and black) chrome plated, when chroming became the norm in the mid 1930's. I should add, that brass badges were occasionally worn also by police bands, notably in Salford. I hope this answers you question.

Dave.

[GTB]

Thanks, Dave, most informative and it has obviously taken up a lot of your time.

I need to point out a misconception in your first paragraph. I have always been referring to the central oval only as being originally brass, and not the whole War Service badge. My contention was that perhaps this oval centrepiece in brass may have formed part of a brass Bristol Constabulary (not War Reserve) badge/plate.

In the absence of clear photos I am giving a breakdown of my badge's component parts:
1. Crowned rayed star (chrome). 2 copper loops W & E.
2. Oval centrepiece with force title on strap (chromed brass). Incidentally, the finish is duller than the backing star. This centrepiece is mounted on the star by means of narrow prongs N & S.
3. Separate letters 'W R' inserted into the blank centre of the oval. (wm)

GTB

[GTB]

Dave,
The subject of brass (British) Police badges/buttons is intriguing.

May I have your comments on the attached (Ripley 147 - Newcastle-upon-Tyne City Police).
The backmark is interesting:'BRIGGS.JONES & GIBSON (1924) Ltd / Manchester'

GTB

PS. All comments welcome

[davidwyke]

Hi GTB

I can't really add a great deal to what has already been said by Dave and myself in previous posts. I have to admit that Bristol Constabulary is not a force I know a great deal about but I have seen quite a few of their badges. Dave or someone else might know better but to the best of my knowledge they have never worn brass headdress badges of any kind, I've certainly never seen one.

As regards buttons, I agree with Howard Ripley as quoted above. Most police officers who were assigned to fire fighting duties (and, as Dave points out, not all City & Borough forces operated the fire brigade) wore the standard issue buttons. Some forces (a minority) issued brass versions of the regular buttons. A few (very few) forces issued buttons of a different pattern to the regular buttons.

Like Dave, I've never seen a brass police headdress badge which was issued to "police firemen".

David

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by GTB

Dave,
The subject of brass (British) Police badges/buttons is intriguing.

May I have your comments on the attached (Ripley 147 - Newcastle-upon-Tyne City Police).
The backmark is interesting:'BRIGGS.JONES & GIBSON (1924) Ltd / Manchester'

GTB

PS. All comments welcome

GTB,

I have this button in brass, BUT its been blacked over presumably for wear at night or on greatcoats.

Dave.

[altcar73]

Originally Posted by GTB

Thanks, Dave, most informative and it has obviously taken up a lot of your time.

I need to point out a misconception in your first paragraph. I have always been referring to the central oval only as being originally brass, and not the whole War Service badge. My contention was that perhaps this oval centrepiece in brass may have formed part of a brass Bristol Constabulary (not War Reserve) badge/plate.

In the absence of clear photos I am giving a breakdown of my badge's component parts:
1. Crowned rayed star (chrome). 2 copper loops W & E.
2. Oval centrepiece with force title on strap (chromed brass). Incidentally, the finish is duller than the backing star. This centrepiece is mounted on the star by means of narrow prongs N & S.
3. Separate letters 'W R' inserted into the blank centre of the oval. (wm)

GTB

GTB,

Yes, I do have an identical badge to yours so I understand the make up of it. That said, I've never seen the gartered centre in brass being worn as part of another badge. What has probably occurred in this case is that the manufacturers have stamped the back stars out of one batch of white metal and the garter centres out of a batch of brass metal. They did this knowing that the finished product would be totally chromed over so it would not really matter what colour the base metals were. That's my theory anyway.

Dave.