Imperial Service Badge

[orasot]

How nice to see respected member JT back posting and badges being discussed on the badge forum!! Here you go JT, I have scanned mine for you, next to a Lambourne w/m one for you to compare, the gm badge certainly has some age to it.
Steve

[Alex Rice]

Without getting input from Howard, it's difficult to say but the book is more focused on WWI medals and there is only one page on the Imperial Service badge. I assume they were made with gilt finish but difficult to say. Often, the only provenance with these is the fact that one came with a WWI medal group.
Cheers,
Alex

[magpie]

Which could have been gilded at anytime after original manufacture, but if they came regularly and perhaps only with medal group's to officers that qualified for the badge then that may prove they were an officer's item, seems to defeat the cheap as possible idea if you then add an expensive processes to some later and wouldn't they be of a superior quality badge not the standard.

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by orasot

How nice to see respected member JT back posting and badges being discussed on the badge forum!! Here you go JT, I have scanned mine for you, next to a Lambourne w/m one for you to compare, the gm badge certainly has some age to it.
Steve

Steve,
Does your Gm badge have a slightly shorter tablet too?

Andy

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by orasot

How nice to see respected member JT back posting and badges being discussed on the badge forum!! Here you go JT, I have scanned mine for you, next to a Lambourne w/m one for you to compare, the gm badge certainly has some age to it.
Steve

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Steve,
Does your Gm badge have a slightly shorter tablet too?

Andy

This g/m is in deficit by almost 2mm:

image.jpg

However, both are the same (correct) height.

[Tinto]

[QUOTE=Tinto;334743]Hi All,

To add to the discussion, I have 3 Imperial Service badges, two in white metal and one in gilding metal.

All tablets are the same length but the gilding metal one is 9mm wide compared with the white metal ones which are 10mm.

One of the white metal badges has J R GAUNT LONDON on back.

Here are my badges as described above. I think the GM version did have some signs of gilding once.

Cheers, Tinto

[grumpy]

I must compare and measure mine [the badge, the badge!], & will do next week.

Interesting phrase used above, "officially sanctioned". Sanction can come from many levels, from the RACD downwards, all the way to the CO, Adjt and RSM. We cannot dispute that some very unusual badges have been worn at unit, brigade or indeed theatre level without ever appearing in Clothing Regs or Priced Vocabs., or indeed Sealed Patterns being issued.

As examples, many shoulder titles [especially cast, India], not a few cap badges, and many "trade" and unit badges and flashes.

For my part, if I see an authentic photo of a soldier wearing a hitherto dubious badge that was once categorized "not sanctioned" then I place it in a "demi-official" category. I am sure members have such items.

Whether the gilding metal badge/tablet/brooch is such an item is now a matter of interest, but identifying gm from wm in period photos is, as we know, very difficult.

The search is on.

One thought. Perhaps a reference to gm versions might be found in regimental histories.

[orasot]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Steve,
Does your Gm badge have a slightly shorter tablet too?

Andy

The w/m tablet measures 43mm x 10mm with the gm one measuring 43mm x 9mm, both are 26mm from base of tablet to top of crown.
Steve

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by grumpy

I must compare and measure mine [the badge, the badge!], & will do next week.

Interesting phrase used above, "officially sanctioned". Sanction can come from many levels, from the RACD downwards, all the way to the CO, Adjt and RSM. We cannot dispute that some very unusual badges have been worn at unit, brigade or indeed theatre level without ever appearing in Clothing Regs or Priced Vocabs., or indeed Sealed Patterns being issued.

As examples, many shoulder titles [especially cast, India], not a few cap badges, and many "trade" and unit badges and flashes.

For my part, if I see an authentic photo of a soldier wearing a hitherto dubious badge that was once categorized "not sanctioned" then I place it in a "demi-official" category. I am sure members have such items.

Whether the gilding metal badge/tablet/brooch is such an item is now a matter of interest, but identifying gm from wm in period photos is, as we know, very difficult.

The search is on.

One thought. Perhaps a reference to gm versions might be found in regimental histories.

'Sanction’ in this instance came from perhaps the highest possible level. This is a badge that was chosen and approved by King Edward VII, and filtered through such august bodies and individuals as: the War Office; the Secretary of State; Sir Ian Hamilton, (Adjutant General from 1909 – 1910); the Committee on Honours and Distinctions, which included the likes of Major-General Sir John Spencer Ewart, CB (Adjutant General 1910 – 1914); Brigadier-General G F Ellison CB; Colonel N D Findlay CB; Colonel H W Pearse DSO; and the Quartermaster General, to name but a few. Issues relating to the wearing of the badge were even raised in the House of Lords, three or so months after its introduction.

The samples presented to Edward VII for selection and approval had been made by Jennens & Co. My research to date indicates that there were six w/m examples in total for the King to choose from, three of which had been artificially coloured to resemble brass. His preference was, of course, the w/m example we see today.

This is not an item that is (to use the above phrase) a ‘hitherto dubious badge’, nor even a very unusual badge worn at unit, brigade or theatre level. We have no need to scratch our heads in speculation as to its pedigree, its authenticity, its origin or its place in officialdom. We have hard evidence which provides us with the knowledge that this cheaply-made, shiny, often deliberately not worn, little badge was kosher from start to finish. We are even furnished with its dimensions.

What we do not yet have, (please note the word ‘yet’) is that same, or similar, evidence in support of g/m examples. We can speculate indefinitely that, for example, sanctioned-at-lower-levels g/m badges were/might have been worn, and why shouldn’t we? It is a perfectly reasonable notion. We see g/m examples in circulation today; they are there for us to ponder over. But as yet the evidence in support of their official status is, in my opinion, not enough to be persuasive. What I am anxious not to do is settle for convenient irresolution, ambiguity, or incertitude, purely in the name of polite conformity, convention or through fear of contradiction, or simply because we cannot disprove it (Russell’s yellow teapot)

Of course collectors, researchers, aficionados etc must have and should voice opinions, debate possibilities, argue the toss, challenge the evidence, even risk upsetting the odd applecart or three; I am all for that… wouldn’t have it any other way. Good progress rarely can be made by any other means. I am not contesting the point that g/m badges could have been ‘official’ (whichever way you wish to define that word) and could have been worn, but I am not taking anything on faith. I feel compelled to go where the evidence leads.

[Jack8]

Hi JT,

A few of mine as requested.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Jack8

Hi JT,

A few of mine as requested.

Thanks for posting those, Jack. Interesting to note (to me, at least) that the crowns of the Lambourne badges are less fan-shaped than their contemporaries.

Not of any real significance; just thought I'd give the ol' anorak an airing

ISB Crown Shapes.jpg

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Not of any real significance; just thought I'd give the ol' anorak an airing

Attachment 147768

Surely you mean a padded, windproof jacket of Inuit origin.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by High Wood

Surely you mean a padded, windproof jacket of Inuit origin.

Yep, that'll be the one

[Jelly Terror]

As an update to this thread/subject, I hope this will be of interest:

Contained within the Army Clothing Department, Register of Changes 1904-1909, is further evidence that the ISB was produced in white-metal only. The entry records the deposition of the standard pattern with the ACD (Pattern 7105/1909) on the 21st December 1909, and states:

'Badges, German Silver, Territorial Imperial Service... '

The badge submitted as the standard pattern was supplied by Firmin & Son, which seems to be more in keeping with the ISB generally, as Jennens (the contractor who produced the initial ISB 'prototypes' for submission to the King for selection and approval) were essentially manufacturers of officers' badges.

Clearly other manufacturers also produced examples of the ISB, Gaunt, Lambourne, Armfields, and Suttle among them.

JT

[dumdum]

Just remembered that I was going to post a photo of a Scot (in trews) wearing his ISB. I was looking for something else when I located it in a folder of assorted postcards!