British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum

Recent Books by Forum Members

   

Go Back   British & Commonwealth Military Badge Forum > British Military Insignia > Formation Signs and Patches

 Other Pages: Galleries, Links etc.
Glossary  Books by Forum Members     Canadian Pre 1914    CEF    CEF Badge Inscriptions   Canadian post 1920     Canadian post 1953     British Cavalry Badges     Makers' Marks    Pipers' Badges  Canadian Cloth Titles  Books  SEARCH
 
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 29-03-20, 05:17 PM
NORMANDIE18's Avatar
NORMANDIE18 NORMANDIE18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NORMANDY, FRANCE
Posts: 109
Default 56th independant brigade cloth formation badges 1st & 2nd type

Hi,
The 56th independant infantry brigade wore 2 slightly different cloth formation badges :
-1st type : embroidered sphinx & black disc on square of yellow felt, with black cotton at back
-2nd type : embroidered sphinx & black disc (minus the lower part of the disc) trimmed on yellow felt, with white gauze like cloth at back
The 1st type is worn during D-Day & Normandy Battle (see b&w picture). The brigade joined 49th Division in August/september 1944 and still wore the sphinx in combination with the polar bear formation badge.
I am uncertain when the 2nd type began to be worn ? Any evidence would be welcome.
regards
Normandie18

Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-04-20, 11:03 PM
lettman lettman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 921
Default

Many thanks for posting this. My left-facing version on a square background conforms exactly to the first pattern, front and back, illustrated by you. Very reassuring!
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 05-04-20, 08:21 AM
NORMANDIE18's Avatar
NORMANDIE18 NORMANDIE18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NORMANDY, FRANCE
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lettman View Post
Many thanks for posting this. My left-facing version on a square background conforms exactly to the first pattern, front and back, illustrated by you. Very reassuring!
These 2 embroidered patterns are the only original versions. All other versions, printed or embroidered are fakes.
Regards
Normandie18
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-04-20, 12:55 AM
lettman lettman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 921
Default

This is worth knowing -- thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12-04-20, 11:28 PM
Mike Jackson's Avatar
Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NORMANDIE18 View Post
These 2 embroidered patterns are the only original versions. All other versions, printed or embroidered are fakes.
Regards
Normandie18
My second pattern - so called "cut down" - came 35 years ago from a Belfast manufacturer's sample board. It was obviously manufactured in the "cut down" format and the yellow shade is brighter than the pale yellow on the rectangular first pattern signs. I'm currently in Australia (for the foreseeable future) and all my images are on my hard drive in Somerset UK. I'll post them sometime in the future. Mike
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 13-04-20, 06:04 AM
lettman lettman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 921
Default

Hope you're enjoying -- well, as much as possible given the circumstances -- your stay with us, Mike!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 13-04-20, 07:49 AM
Mike Jackson's Avatar
Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,251
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lettman View Post
Hope you're enjoying -- well, as much as possible given the circumstances -- your stay with us, Mike!
Thanks. I'm in Year 12 of membership I think!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 13-04-20, 08:14 AM
Glosters Cloth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

A good post Normandie18. I'm ex Glosters and so have an interest in all cloth insignia worn by my old Regiment. I have seen several embroidered "genuine" 56th Ind Inf Brigade on eBay, which look very homemade to me, and recently a "genuine" printed version for sale by a dealer.
All the evidence that I have points to only the full size badge being worn by my regiment whilst the were part of the Independent Infantry Brigade, and the cut down version being worn once they ceased to be Independent and came under the command of the 49th Div. I have no evidence that my Regiment ever wore the circular version you illustrate.
I hope the above, from a Gloucestershire Regiment perspective may be useful?
Regards,
Ken
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 13-04-20, 08:53 AM
NORMANDIE18's Avatar
NORMANDIE18 NORMANDIE18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NORMANDY, FRANCE
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Jackson View Post
My second pattern - so called "cut down" - came 35 years ago from a Belfast manufacturer's sample board. It was obviously manufactured in the "cut down" format and the yellow shade is brighter than the pale yellow on the rectangular first pattern signs. I'm currently in Australia (for the foreseeable future) and all my images are on my hard drive in Somerset UK. I'll post them sometime in the future. Mike
I would love to see your 56th independant brigade cloth badge.
Best regards from France
Normandie18
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 13-04-20, 09:03 AM
NORMANDIE18's Avatar
NORMANDIE18 NORMANDIE18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NORMANDY, FRANCE
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glosters Cloth View Post
I have no evidence that my Regiment ever wore the circular version you illustrate.
I hope the above, from a Gloucestershire Regiment perspective may be useful?
Regards,
Ken
Thanks Ken for this much appreciated input ! The circular version is a trimmed 1st patern and shows evidence it has been worn this way. It is possible the badge has been trimmed due to the bad quality of the yellow felt.
Regards
Normandie18
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 13-04-20, 07:25 PM
cbuehler cbuehler is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 1,301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NORMANDIE18 View Post
These 2 embroidered patterns are the only original versions. All other versions, printed or embroidered are fakes.
Regards
Normandie18
Well, if this is indeed the case, this one formation badge I will have to throw in the towel on any hope of acquiring an example.
Virtually every one that I can recall having seen for sale over the past several years were fake.

CB
__________________
Bdr. Parker Windle MM, A Btry. 210th (E. Lancs.) RFA WW1 , fr. Burnley
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 15-04-20, 10:05 PM
NORMANDIE18's Avatar
NORMANDIE18 NORMANDIE18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NORMANDY, FRANCE
Posts: 109
Default

Hi,
Another picture where we can see 1st pattern worn in Normandy :
The Roman Catholic Chaplain to 2nd Battalion, Essex Regiment, Captain the Reverend W R Thomas, receives the Military Cross from General Montgomery for gallantry during the Normandy landings.
regards
Normandie18
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 23-04-20, 09:46 AM
Glosters Cloth
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NORMANDIE18 View Post
Thanks Ken for this much appreciated input ! The circular version is a trimmed 1st patern and shows evidence it has been worn this way. It is possible the badge has been trimmed due to the bad quality of the yellow felt.
Regards
Normandie18
That's a tough question. My view, from all that I've read points in the direction that once the 2nd Glosters ceased to be an Independent Brigade, and came under the permanent command of the 49th Div, thus wearing the famed Polar Bear insignia, that in order to retain the prized 56th Sphinx insignia, they cut down the full size 56th down as looking at possible insignia - GLOSTER, 49th, 56th, AOS Trade and Rank badges all together would be a looooooong combination and in order to retain the 56th Sphinx they simply cut it down. It's only my theory, and once this lockdown situation is over (!) I can get back to reading the War Diary in London and maybe give you more concrete information in the near (!) future. Hope that's useful? Ken
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 23-04-20, 07:50 PM
NORMANDIE18's Avatar
NORMANDIE18 NORMANDIE18 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: NORMANDY, FRANCE
Posts: 109
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Glosters Cloth View Post
That's a tough question. My view, from all that I've read points in the direction that once the 2nd Glosters ceased to be an Independent Brigade, and came under the permanent command of the 49th Div, thus wearing the famed Polar Bear insignia, that in order to retain the prized 56th Sphinx insignia, they cut down the full size 56th down as looking at possible insignia - GLOSTER, 49th, 56th, AOS Trade and Rank badges all together would be a looooooong combination and in order to retain the 56th Sphinx they simply cut it down. It's only my theory, and once this lockdown situation is over (!) I can get back to reading the War Diary in London and maybe give you more concrete information in the near (!) future. Hope that's useful? Ken
Hi Ken,
You may be right about the trimmed bad. You are right again : the war diaries may indicate when the combination 49th Div / 56th Brigade were worn or/and when the 2nd pattern were used. I do not remember finding pictures of the sphinx cloth badges worn by the 2nd South Wales Borderers or the 2nd Gloster. Any evidence would be welcome.
Regards
Normandie18
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-05-20, 03:55 PM
JBBOND's Avatar
JBBOND JBBOND is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wales
Posts: 3,528
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by NORMANDIE18 View Post
Hi Ken,
You may be right about the trimmed bad. You are right again : the war diaries may indicate when the combination 49th Div / 56th Brigade were worn or/and when the 2nd pattern were used. I do not remember finding pictures of the sphinx cloth badges worn by the 2nd South Wales Borderers or the 2nd Gloster. Any evidence would be welcome.
Regards
Normandie18
this pic I took off a display in the museum at Brecon shows the 56th badge with the red and white title SWB title, the green and white 2nd bn title does not have the sphinx.
Not sure when the green and white title was introduced for 2/SWB
Attached Images
File Type: jpg white on green swb titles in museum.jpg (61.8 KB, 16 views)
__________________
Regards,

Jerry
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:14 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.