Unknown cap badge

[P.Jones]

Simon.
Humble apologies, I did of course mean his LEFT arm, which I believe is inverted?

I never knew L/Cp was an appointment and not a rank, so the badges are the same. Thank you for that information.

Kingsley.

Good conduct, Interesting.

Regards,
Philip

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by P.Jones

Just an update before I post another photo. After receiving more information. He was in the Royal Engineers. Stationed at Chatham. (was also at the relief of Mafeking).

Sapper 10 May 1892, L/Cpl 21 Jun 1893, 2nd Cpl 1 Dec 1895, Corporal 1 Feb 1899, extended service 16 Jun 1899, Sergeant 1 Apr 1901, CSM 23 Jun 1907, QMS 12 Mar 1910.

Second Corporal (2nd Cpl.). This I believe was a uniquely RE rank which fell between the ranks of Lance Corporal and Corporal. 2nd Cpl was still one stripe? Is there any visual difference between the stripe of L/Cpl and 2nd Cpl?

This photo taken 1893-1895. At first glance I thought the bicycle was just a photographers prop but on close inspection look at the long socks (bicycle attire?). Did the R.E. have a cycle company?

Also his cape badge looks nothing like an R.E. badge? And the meaning of the inverted chevron and Badge (symbol) above the chevron? On his left arm.

And the collar badge looks black (if it’s a collar badge, or just a shadow in the photo?) I think I can zoom in more on the photo than the one posted on the forum.

Thanks in advance.

Philip

An interesting photo that shows ‘optional cycling dress’ introduced in the 1890s. The Army was always concerned about the appearance of soldiers when venturing outside barracks and as civilian clothes were not permitted uniform always had to be worn. When cycling became the latest fad young soldiers wanted to partake but normal walking-out-dress was unsuitable, being too restrictive and inappropriate for tucking into socks. The Army came up with cycling dress but were unwilling to fund it at public expense and so it became optional with soldiers paying for it by subscription, but usually subsidised by canteen profits managed by each unit. This was not unusual and also used to fund things like swagger sticks/canes that were also not funded at public expense.

As regards the fellow with a chevron on his pillbox forage cap, he is a Second Corporal of the Corps of Royal Engineers. As pointed out unlike the artillery, RE other ranks did not wear collar badges at that time, it being considered that superior quality velvet (in garter blue) collar and cuffs on a scarlet tunic or shell jacket were a sufficient distinction. Officers however, did wear grenade collar badges as a historical link with the old Board of Ordance in which both artillery and engineers had originated.

NB. Cycling dress was generally made from dark blue serge locally and the jacket was later standardised to include two patch pockets on the breast.

[P.Jones]

Toby,

Thank you for that amazing informative information. Everything the forum stands for. Do you have any views on the inverted chevron and badge on his left arm? Good conduct, as suggested?

Regards,
Philip

[P.Jones]

Next photo of him taken on the ‘Rock” taken between 1896-1899. Apparently he helped install the first searchlights in Gibraltar. So apart from joining the Freemasons! Why would he and his companion not have the chevrons sewn on properly? Different method of attaching?

Regards,
Philip

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by P.Jones

Toby,

Thank you for that amazing informative information. Everything the forum stands for. Do you have any views on the inverted chevron and badge on his left arm? Good conduct, as suggested?

Regards,
Philip

Yes Philip the inverted stripe is for good conduct and represents having achieved 2-years regular service without disciplinary blemish. The shield badge above is very intriguing to me and not something that I’ve seen before. It doesn’t appear in any reference material that I have, including the excellent publication part authored by the member of this forum, Grumpy. One thing I notice is the particular shape of shield**, whose outline is reminiscent of the collar badge of the Loyal North Lancashire Regiment, although I’m not suggesting any linkage whatsoever. The field cap being worn is of the so-called ‘Torin’ type that was worn between approximately the mid 1880s and 1894. During that period the shoulder title RE was worn as insignia upon it.

**which seems to be ‘Victorian Engrailed’ if I’ve identified it correctly.

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by P.Jones

Next photo of him taken on the ‘Rock” taken between 1896-1899. Apparently he helped install the first searchlights in Gibraltar. So apart from joining the Freemasons! Why would he and his companion not have the chevrons sewn on properly? Different method of attaching?

Regards,
Philip

Both men are wearing uniform made from ‘khaki drill’ (KD - a stout cotton twill) and the stripes are of the type originally laid down for khaki uniform, which were red on an off white backing. That pattern was replaced by drab (brownish khaki) stripes formed from worsted herringbone tape mounted on drab backing from 1902 onward, although old stocks had to be wasted out. KD, like all cotton and linen uniform was susceptible to becoming sweat sodden in hot and humid climates and so soldiers were issued with more suits than for other uniform so that they could be regularly changed and laundered by native laundrymen commonly known as Dhobi-Wallahs (Hindustani for washermen and used as soldiers lingo even outside India). In the hot season each year a soldier would change his clothes at least twice each day according to contemporary accounts. Rank stripes would soon have lost their shape and become colour run and so they were fitted with hooks and eyes to facilitate swapping them between uniforms during laundry changes.

At that time a great many Freemason ‘Lodges’ were established by specific army units. Each with a serial number they are recorded in Freemasonry history and quite a few still exist overseas, albeit they’re now civilianised. Other societies popular among soldiers were the Royal Ancient Order of Buffalo’s and the Army Temperance Society (also originally regimental).

[P.Jones]

Toby,

That is truly an amazing wealth of knowledge you have! I can’t thank you enough. So just the badge above the chevron, ‘Victorian Engrailed’ interesting.

Just a small update from newspaper cuttings from 1951, upon his death.

He was in the old 6th company Royal Engineers.

He was a past Grand Master of the Gibraltar District Oddfellows.

Next up Boer war,

Regard,
Philip

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by P.Jones

Toby,

That is truly an amazing wealth of knowledge you have! I can’t thank you enough. So just the badge above the chevron, ‘Victorian Engrailed’ interesting.

Just a small update from newspaper cuttings from 1951, upon his death.

He was in the old 6th company Royal Engineers.

He was a past Grand Master of the Gibraltar District Oddfellows.

Next up Boer war,

Regard,
Philip

I’m glad to help. The Oddfellows was another popular society among Army other ranks. The whole concept of society membership seems to have been a part of the culture back then and I’m not sure what led to its decline, although I imagine the two World Wars probably played a significant part.
Gibraltar is the Corps of Royal Engineers birthplace and No 6 Company was the last of the six “General Service” companies raised in 1787.

[P.Jones]

Toby,

Once again your knowledge never ceases to amaze me! My main interests are world war one and two, so this has been a most interesting learning curve for me. Once again I thank you for sharing your vast knowledge.

Kind regards,
Philip

[P.Jones]

Next up,

George Olive 3.jpg

Sergeant in South Africa. Photo taken in 1901 or after? He was C.S.M. in 1907. Occupation: Electrician / Skilled farrier. ( In the 1891 census aged 18 he is living in the High Street in Ealing as a farrier's apprentice. I believe he did not complete the apprenticeship and “Took the Queens Shilling” on 10th May 1892 ).

Once again a different uniform, wearing Jodhpurs and spurs, leather calf leggings (not sure of the correct terminology) grenade above the Sergeants chevrons, meaning? (still not wearing collar badges). Cross belt ammunition pouches. If I didn’t know better I would have thought cavalry. I appreciate many corps and services would have employed Horses at that time, so farrier?? Also the metal strip on his left breast pocket? End of a chain on a pocket watch? I Still can’t see his cap badge!

He was at the capture of Vrijberg and the relief of Mafeking. (He was one of the men who helped construct the railway line into Mafeking, most of those engaged on this work were stricken with fever).

Next up (last one honest!) world war one.

Regard,
Philip

[Toby Purcell]

Yes he’s a sergeant of Royal Engineers dressed typically for the 2nd Anglo/Boer War of 1899-1902. The grenade arm badge was introduced in 1881 for SNCOs of the Royal Engineers (but not for the single grade of warrant officer that existed at that time). The RE had previously used a simple small crown as their SNCO arm badge** rather like some cavalry regiments did and as their brother arm in the artillery had adopted a gun as arm badge quite a few decades before the RE thought they should adopt an identifying icon too. As their officers were already wearing the grenade as a collar badge that seemed like the right device and so it was selected.

The jacket he wears is the later, 1901 manifestation of the serge service dress with which the army had been experimenting since 1899. It was in effect a ‘drab’ (brownish khaki) version of the scarlet and blue patrol jackets adopted as a field garment by the officers since 1896 and 1898 respectively. The soldier’s equivalent had evolved from drab versions of the old scarlet frocks, initially with two skirt pockets, then two breast pockets, and this final version simply put both sets of pockets on. The following year in 1902 the design was finalised with some minor modifications to become the uniform rolled out as universal field uniform across the entire British Army and was so forward in design that it remained in primary use until 1937 and in barracks use until as late as the 1960s. The T-bar you see on one breast pocket is a common, utilitarian style of fob for his watch.

The bandolier is the final iteration of the 1888 pattern that had been modified to accept the .303” cartridge (termed 1897 pattern). He wears a cotton drill field service cap of the so-called Austrian style made popular by General Lord Robert’s (‘Bobs’) and probably wasn’t wearing a badge, as the two, small (22 ligne) buttons were sometimes considered sufficient in field conditions. His breeches are likely hard wearing Bedford cord, which were especially popular. The leather leggings he wears were also popular with SNCOs as they were a type fitted to the calf that gave a superior appearance rather like an officers riding boots. His spurs are with chains, but not the leather stirrup guards later favoured, and are of standard army issue.

**ergo prior to 1881 a RE sergeant had the appearance of a SSgt in other arms and an RE staff sergeant had four stripes.

NB. Are you a member of the Great War Forum? If not you should join.

[P.Jones]

Toby,

That is truly amazing, I am lost for words! I also never knew that RE staff sergeant had four stripes prior to 1881 or anyone else for that matter. With your extensive Knowledge what an informative story to tell his great, great grandchildren, turning an “old Photo” from something you see but do not understand into an educational link too the past. I thank you once again.

Kind regards,

Philip

P.S. I was once on the Great War Forum but migrated here at the start of this Forum but point taken! Have to find my pass word now!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by P.Jones

Toby,

That is truly amazing, I am lost for words! I also never knew that RE staff sergeant had four stripes prior to 1881 or anyone else for that matter. With your extensive Knowledge what an informative story to tell his great, great grandchildren, turning an “old Photo” from something you see but do not understand into an educational link too the past. I thank you once again.

Kind regards,

Philip

P.S. I was once on the Great War Forum but migrated here at the start of this Forum but point taken! Have to find my pass word now!

"Corresponding with their grades the sergeants and staff-sergeants have finer cloth and wear royal gold cord on those parts [of their tunic] whereas the rank and file display yellow worsted cord only.

Rank is shown by chevrons of gold lace worn above the elbow, but the badges to denote the Staff-sergeants occur just above the sleeve knot with the points upward#. Lance-corporals have one stripe on the right arm only; and those [NCOs] above have the marks on both arms. Ergo second corporals one on each arm; corporals two; sergeants three and an embroidered crown;

colour-serjeants an equal number of chevrons surmounted by an open banner [union flag] and based by a couple of crossed swords; and the staff-sergeants four badges of broader lace and an embroidered crown.”

NB. The smaller B&W images below show the uniform after 1857, when rank badges were all still point down, with ‘staff sergeants’**(i.e. sgt maj’s & QMS) chevrons on the lower arm. This was years before the introduction of warrant officer.

#This appears to be an error as all photos and paintings show point down until after 1881.

**staff sergeants were collectively the grouping that included sergeant majors and quarter-master-sergeants before the rank of warrant officer was introduced. They were basically the SNCO equivalent of staff officers and worked in the more senior role within unit headquarters.

P.S. If you return to the Great War Forum no doubt our paths will cross there.

[P.Jones]

Hi Toby,

Once again most informative, the accompanying photos are most interesting, my chap was an QMS 12 March 1910 unfortunately I don’t have a photo of him from that time. This information will be most helpful in identifying early photos:-

"Lance-corporals have one stripe on the right arm only; and those [NCOs] above have the marks on both arms. Ergo second corporals one on each arm; corporals two; sergeants three and an embroidered crown."

Tomorrow last photo world war one, time permitting (not so many questions) just to round off the achievements of a remarkable journey.

Kind regards,
Philip

P.S. Yes indeed, hopefully our paths will cross on the Great War Forum!

[Toby Purcell]

Originally Posted by P.Jones

Hi Toby,

Once again most informative, the accompanying photos are most interesting, my chap was an QMS 12 March 1910 unfortunately I don’t have a photo of him from that time. This information will be most helpful in identifying early photos:-

"Lance-corporals have one stripe on the right arm only; and those [NCOs] above have the marks on both arms. Ergo second corporals one on each arm; corporals two; sergeants three and an embroidered crown."

Tomorrow last photo world war one, time permitting (not so many questions) just to round off the achievements of a remarkable journey.

Kind regards,
Philip

P.S. Yes indeed, hopefully our paths will cross on the Great War Forum!

There were (and are still) two levels at which a man might be a quarter-master-sergeant, Phillip. The first was at RE company level, wearing three stripes with grenade then crown above on upper arms (which was also worn by the company-sergeant-major until 1915). The second was at superior unit headquarters level, wearing four stripes point up and grenade plus an 8-pointed star above on lower arms. This latter, along with the CSM had their status elevated to warrant officer of the new, second class, in July 1915, at which point their badge changed to a plain crown that had hitherto been the badge of the majority of the original single class warrant officer rank introduced in 1881. The exceptions had been a few in the most discrete roles of all, with highly specialised appointments, who had different badges not relevant to the RE.