SAS Beret cloth badge-plus some other questions

[Phill Lockett]

Hi friends

I would like opinions on which era this badge was made and issued. I have scoured the forum but could not find an exact similar SAS cloth badge for comparison-there are many!!

I am guessing this is of UK origin.Not to sure if this is silk thread(Rayon?), it does not glow under UV testing.

Also the use of paper covered cloth badges, were they specific to manufacturers during and post WWII, as I have a few WWII Division formation signs with paper backed obviously(guessing) protecting the back from fraying.

Another question when did paper backed "cloth" badges stopped being used(approx)?

Also my WWII Formation signs have the embroidery covering the base and black cloth stabilizer and the few post WWII ones I have have the embroidery covering the base then the black cloth covering the back.

However I do have a 1950's round commando FS, ID earlier this year on the forum, that the embroidery is covering the base and black cloth stabilizer like the WWII era FS.

I'm trying to slowly figure out my way thru WWII-50's era construction and manufacturing techniques to get a better overall understanding-limited as it is!

cheers

Phill

[pontecagnano]

Hi Phill

Your SAS beret badge is from New Zealand. Probably 60s or 70s.

Uncut example attached. This has a black paper backing.

Cheers,

Graham

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks P

Interesting I had a collector down here think its of 50's British origin. I'm surprised its from NZ as it is well made for 60's period and that we had used paper backing.

If so this would be NZ SAS Vietnam period, excellent.

Is the embroidery on the reverse the same manufactured style?

cheers

Phill

[JerryBB]

I believe it is the,lack of a red line under the crossguard of the sword that makes it of NZ origin.

[pontecagnano]

Originally Posted by JBBOND

I believe it is the,lack of a red line under the crossguard of the sword that makes it of NZ origin.

Yes, that's correct Jerry. On this pattern, the lines on the flames go right to the top as well.

I put some examples, including the backs, in a thread on the forum a while ago and need to locate it.

Regards,

Graham

[Phill Lockett]

Thanks Graham and Jerry

Always learning and I'm happy that it is NZ Vietnam era SAS Beret Badge.

Hopefully you can locate that thread with the backs.

The question I now have to ask, is the missing red line under the guard a manufacturing trait or deliberate to ID as NZ?

much appreciated guys

Phill

[Phill Lockett]

Hi friends

I did find this example on 28/LXI Military Antiques website.

Wondering if the one I posted is an earlier example c1960ish.

http://www.28-lxi.com/viewphoto.php?shoph=50955&phqu=5

Phill

[pontecagnano]

Originally Posted by Phill Lockett

Interesting I had a collector down here think its of 50's British origin. I'm surprised its from NZ as it is well made for 60's period and that we had used paper backing.

HI Phill,

This is the post I was referring to but you may find other parts of the thread interesting too:

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...7&postcount=42

I think your contact's mention of a possible British 1950s badge may arise from the fact that these uncut NZ beret badges sometimes get misidentified as 1950s 21 SAS arm badges. The shape is completely different though. I picked up a nice example of an early uncut NZ beret badge when it was described on eBay, by a US seller, as Zimbabwean SAS.

Cheers,

Graham

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Graham

Much appreciated for finding the thread.

My contact is a well known NZ collector, author of NZ cloth insignia WWI onwards, he is stumped.
However in discussion he is not to sure it is NZ made, reason being we did not use or have black paper backed badge's, paper yes including news paper and the early issued SAS badges were of British origins and used by NZ SAS.

Now that does not mean that the badge was not worn by kiwi's but it wasn't made by kiwi's either.

The missing red guard is just a manufacturers variation whether it was done deliberately or part of their design, we will not know,however I have seen the same on British and Rhody badges as well as NZ SAS maroon beret searching the forum and the net.

After reviewing the thread you posted, how do you come to the conclusion the one I have is NZ made.

Hopefully you do not take this as a slight as this is my first SAS badge.

I will add one more comment , the blue feathers and scroll is quite thick, you can run your finger over it and feel the grooves, too me it means its well made and im not sure NZ had that type of commercial embroidery during the 60's more likely made earlier?

Always learning!!

cheers

Phill

[pontecagnano]

Hi Phill,

I don't think I've stated anywhere this version was made in NZ, just worn by them

Having said that, I'm sure some variants of this design would have been made in country as it spanned some 20-25 years. (Source Anzac Elite plate 685)

You're right that the British pattern was worn in the 1950s. It only seems to be the first pattern, without the red line that has the paper backing. Check out my original post for later examples. They have the red line missing but no paper.

I can't recall ever seeing a genuine Rhodesian made badge with the red line missing but never say never with badges. It's possible badges believed to be British or Rhodesian are actually NZ but we need to assess each badge on its merits.

Cheers,

Graham

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Graham

Below is an attributed NZ SAS badge (not in my possession) by a well known dealer in NZ militaria. I believe these are made in NZ not to sure what period looks more modern than pre 70's.
As has been pointed out the lower red guard is missing.

So my original questions of when did manufacturers phase out the use of black paper covered Formation Signs /SAS Beret Badge?

thanks for all the input.

Phill

[pontecagnano]

Hi Phill,

Just to clarify, the Excalibur arm badge was only worn by 21SAS until 1957 when it was superseded by the Mars & Minerva badge. The Excalibur arm badge was typically embroidered through a cloth backing although sometimes the cloth backing would cover the embroidery.

I have attached an example (top in the images) with four NZSAS uncut beret badges for comparison.

The badge you illustrate may have lost the red embroidery on the cross guard as it is quite worn, but, if it can be authenticated as worn by a member of the NZSAS, may be an early pre 1960 'British' pattern badge. The type of backing is very similar to 1950s and 1960s British badges.

To answer your question, I would say the NZSAS paper backed beret badges were worn in the 1960s and possibly into the 1970s. It's harder to be any more precise than that unless someone else can narrow this down.

Cheers,

Graham

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Graham

Really appreciate your input and additional images.

There are several points that you might be able to shed some light on.

The backing, to me at least, is the same as my WWII and 1950's Combined Ops formation signs, which makes me think that it is of British origin (1950's), they do not look the same as in your images, are they the same? Has that chain linked effect!

The missing red line under the guard, looks like a manufacturers variation/interpretation, as there is nothing on the reverse to suggest that there was a red line added as with all images.

I don't believe my one has been worn out as there is no evidence of a missing thread. This could only mean they were hand taken out deliberately to denote a reason or just a manufacturers variation.

Thoughts from an inquisitive mind!!

Again I appreciate your help , I will see if I can find out any more from down this way-stay tuned.

cheers

Phill

[pontecagnano]

Hi Phill,

Slightly crossed wires!

The comments in my last post referred to the badge you illustrated in post #11 rather than your own badge in post #1. The example in post #11 is noticeably worn on the front.

The NZ paper backed badges have the 'chain link' cloth backing under the paper. This backing is in evidence in the later examples I posted (probably late 70s or early 80s) without the paper. The badges with the red line missing went up to about 1985 I think.

I've attached a couple more images of the paper backed NZSAS variant. This example only has a small piece of the original backing paper remaining. It shows the pattern of the backing cloth underneath and has very similar embroidery to your example from post #1.

Vintage British SAS beret badges typically had thicker paper. I have seen 1970s British SAS Officers' beret badges that have the same thin backing paper as the NZSAS type covering the bullion. I may have one in the shoebox somewhere

Cheers,

Graham

[Phill Lockett]

Hi Graham

I had an indepth discussion regarding my SAS beret badge, with a well known collector of NZ SAS with 40 years experience, who has interviewed SAS members who served from the 50's onwards, has Provenance of all his NZ SAS items,badges,insignia berets, uniforms etc...

It is an early issued to NZ SAS 1960's that could of been worn thru the 70's-80, could of be earlier (late 50's early 60's).

He agrees with my theory that the badge is of British origin and not NZ.

NZ did not have the embroidered manufacturing capabilities of the patch I have and that has also been confirmed from another knowledgeable kiwi author, historian and collector.

What I have been told is when the unit was created in 1955,our original SAS beret, badges were supplied from Britain and that would of been for quite sometime, of course theatre made is another source.

The badge has been embroidered on a jacquard loom, finished off with machine guided (re the outer red stitching-note the reverse red/white thread where the tension has not been adjusted properly) and hand embroidered Who Dares Wins.

I queried the missing red stitching, he agrees it is a manufacturers variation. It so happens we must of had a batch of them sent (then later copied).

I have put Graham and mine side by side for comparison, one of British origin and the other NZ origin more likely 70's onwards, when we had more commercial capabilities. You can clearly see the difference.

Graham I can't confirm any other NZ SAS badge with paper backed thin or thick, I don't have the knowledge and experience, all I know is the badge I have is of superior embroidered quality which we did not have at the time.

So you are correct NZ SAS issued (Vietnam period) but is of British origin, this is how I will have it in my database.

cheers Graham you have been a great help and I do appreciate your input

Phill