56 (London) Division

[grey_green_acorn]

Originally Posted by Peter J

Cheque's in the post, mate.

Right, come on John... enough back-patting, let's get this question answered if we can.

During the Great War, what would the 56th (then a Territorial Force Division) badge have been?

PJ

"Wat Tyler's Dagger" was the sign of 56th (London) Division in WW1 - a short sword point upwards - selected by the GOC Major General Sir Charles Hill. The sword being part of the City of London Armorial Bearings.

Tim

[Mike Jackson]

The World War One formation sign was a "short sword" taken from the Armorial Bearings of the City of London. Painted in red on transport. Known colloquially as "Wat Tyler's Dagger"

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

"Wat Tyler's Dagger" was the sign of 56th (London) Division in WW1 - a short sword point upwards - selected by the GOC Major General Sir Charles Hill. The sword being part of the City of London Armorial Bearings.

Tim

Originally Posted by Mike Jackson

The World War One formation sign was a "short sword" taken from the Armorial Bearings of the City of London. Painted in red on transport. Known colloquially as "Wat Tyler's Dagger"

Tim, and Mike,

I hope you won't mind me saying so (and without wishing to be in any way pedantic) the weapon featured in the armorial bearings of the City of London is quite often incorrectly referred to as Wat Tyler's dagger, when in truth it is actually the sword of St. Paul, and as such was taken from the new Seal of the Mayoralty which had been formally adopted many months before Wat Tyler's death. St. Paul is of course the patron Saint of London, who, according to tradition, was beheaded with the depicted weapon.

I believe that the City of London's shield was in use a hundred or so years before the incorporation of the College of Arms (1483), and as far as I am aware, there is no evidence that any grant of arms was ever made to the City, though it is recognised as authentic by the College.

Regards,

Peter

[Mike Jackson]

Peter,
Agreed - hence "known colloquially...."
This colloquialism was carried forward into World War 2 with the unit sign devised by 56 Inf Div Signals ( a red sword-like object on a blue/white diamond). This was worn on BD in 1944-45 in Italy and was known as "Wat Tyler's Dagger" by the wearers.
It certainly makes for a better story than a "short sword".
In Italy the tail of the 56 Inf Div cat acquired a certain significance. On briefing boards within Div HQ the painted cat sign had a moveable wooden tail - if pointing left, the Div was to attack left flanking - and vice versa. This anecdote was passed to the writer by the late FM Sir Gerald Templer - GOC 56 Inf Div until he was injured in Italy by a flying piano. The piano - property of one of the Guards battalion's officer's messes - was ejected from the Mess 3 ton truck when it hit a mine. The GOC was following in his Jeep behind - and collected the flying piano (also recited by Gerald Templer at a party in the Sultanate of Oman in 1977.)

[johnG]

To quote from 'Boutelle's Heraldry', page 235. "London (City), arms dating from the middle of the 14th century: Argent, the cross of St. George, and in the canton the sword of St. Paul........."

It is a common, but wrongly held belief the sword is a representation of the dagger that was used to kill Wat Tyler, and so it is quite possible the chappie who decided to adopt it as a symbol in WW1 had been wrongly advised, and the troops went along with the description.

The Wat Tyler dagger used to be on display in Fishmongers Hall in the City. Perhaps PJ can confirm if it is still there - he knows about these things.

I did not know the formation sign of 56 Div in WW1, and I am obliged to Grey Green for the information that it was the sword. I guess the chances of adding such a patch to ones collection is just about nil, but I suppose one could always add a label saying 'Here should be a formation sign of a sword'.

Edited to add this was written before reading Mike's reply to Peter. A great posting Mike.

Originally Posted by johnG

To quote from 'Boutelle's Heraldry', page 235. "London (City), arms dating from the middle of the 14th century: Argent, the cross of St. George, and in the canton the sword of St. Paul........."

It is a common, but wrongly held belief the sword is a representation of the dagger that was used to kill Wat Tyler, and so it is quite possible the chappie who decided to adopt it as a symbol in WW1 had been wrongly advised, and the troops went along with the description.

The Wat Tyler dagger used to be on display in Fishmongers Hall in the City. Perhaps PJ can confirm if it is still there - he knows about these things.

I did not know the formation sign of 56 Div in WW1, and I am obliged to Grey Green for the information that it was the sword. I guess the chances of adding such a patch to ones collection is just about nil, but I suppose one could always add a label saying 'Here should be a formation sign of a sword'.

Edited to add this was written before reading Mike's reply to Peter. A great posting Mike.

Just to reiterate John's sentiments... many thanks to Tim and Mike for the info on the Division's badge, and for the accompanying anecdote.

John, to the best of my knowledge, the said dagger is still on dispay at Fishmongers Hall; I shall do my best to get along there and see if I can acquire a snap or two (if permissible).

Out of interest, please see below the front cover of a 1918 edition of the 56th Division's journal, whose title sums it all up rather succinctly:

The Dagger.jpg

[grey_green_acorn]

In the interests of completeness these are my sources:

Cigarette Card and an illustration and text from "Divisional and other Signs" by V Wheeler-Holohan published 1920.

Tim

Originally Posted by grey_green_acorn

In the interests of completeness these are my sources:

Cigarette Card and an illustration and text from "Divisional and other Signs" by V Wheeler-Holohan published 1920.

Tim

Nice one, Tim. Great to see. Thanks.