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  #16  
Old 19-02-21, 06:31 PM
arnhem2280 arnhem2280 is offline
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Default RUR airborne Fifty Second shoulder title opinions wanted

Attached a front and rear of a Fifty Second Shoulder Title as well as some others I had in my collection. Other Fifty SEcond titles I have photocopied have identical backs. These appear to be the norm. I have a short note that John Howard wrote in a letter to me saying they were all made by a military tailor in the very early days but were quickly removed.

Personally I would not be happy with the titles that started this thread.

Cheers

Arnhem
Attached Images
File Type: jpg fiftyt second shoulder title front.jpg (45.9 KB, 41 views)
File Type: jpg fiftyt second shoulder title rear.jpg (49.8 KB, 36 views)
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  #17  
Old 20-02-21, 04:20 AM
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3battalion 3battalion is offline
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Gents, I've been following this thread and am enjoying the information presented. What's confusing me as it seems some don't like it because the construction doesn't conform to other examples.

Like most collectors of rare insignia, I first look at the construction and appearance of the piece and when I first saw this title the construction looked to be original with embroidery through the rear stabilising material as seen on many WW2 titles. The front lettering is also neat and in the correct colours. Not a clear sign of originality but this title also has a nice age to it. Attached are some rear photos of similar manufacturing techniques

I'm lucky to have a number of titles to the same Units ie 10 Cdo and it's rare to have two titles made in the same way. Is the expectation that all 52nd titles must be made the same way?

Lastly, I don't own the title so am not trying to justify a purchase but just want to learn why the title in question is getting negative feedback.

Happy collecting

Paul
Attached Images
File Type: jpg No CDO Back..jpg (86.5 KB, 21 views)
File Type: jpg 10 Cdo Back.jpg (55.2 KB, 18 views)
File Type: jpg No 5 CDO Back.jpg (109.7 KB, 22 views)
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  #18  
Old 20-02-21, 03:56 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3battalion View Post
Gents, I've been following this thread and am enjoying the information presented. What's confusing me as it seems some don't like it because the construction doesn't conform to other examples.

Like most collectors of rare insignia, I first look at the construction and appearance of the piece and when I first saw this title the construction looked to be original with embroidery through the rear stabilising material as seen on many WW2 titles. The front lettering is also neat and in the correct colours. Not a clear sign of originality but this title also has a nice age to it. Attached are some rear photos of similar manufacturing techniques

I'm lucky to have a number of titles to the same Units ie 10 Cdo and it's rare to have two titles made in the same way. Is the expectation that all 52nd titles must be made the same way?

Lastly, I don't own the title so am not trying to justify a purchase but just want to learn why the title in question is getting negative feedback.

Happy collecting

Paul
These are all great items, no doubt from your highly discerning collection. One factor to hold in mind is perhaps the length of time a unit/item existed, and theatres of war in which worn. The variety of No.10 Cdo and several other Commando titles will no doubt be determined by the first of these factors - with scope for theatre made production being reflected in the second (not that I am suggesting there were theatre made variants for No.10, but there certainly are for No.2 and some others). The variety in No.10 will be due to manufacturer, and the existence of individual national troops may add to the mix of orders placed (depending on autonomy exercised in placing orders). Strengthening material to the reverse may vary according to what was available, but stitch patterns may indicate different manufacturers. With the Fifty-Second title - as Arnhem has suggested - I think it was a briefly worn title where the scope for variation may not be so great. That does not mean that particular variant should be discounted, just that it represents a further puzzle when compared to other examples. The key of course is to find and share as many totally attributed examples as possible; to share and compare on this forum, or elsewhere, to unravel such mysteries. Hardly a definitive answer but just getting the ball rolling for other thoughts and contributions. Regards - Mike
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  #19  
Old 20-02-21, 04:30 PM
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3battalion 3battalion is offline
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Thanks for your reply Mike.

Indeed, the length of time the 52nd title was in use and the numbers produced may provide an indication of possible variations.

For comparison the British made US 29th Rangers title (tab) was issued for a very short period of time and there is only two known original styles.

Like I mentioned I'm enjoying this thread.

Thanks

Paul
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  #20  
Old 20-02-21, 05:23 PM
arnhem2280 arnhem2280 is offline
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Default RUR airborne Fifty-second shoulder title opinions wanted

Two more fifty second shoulder titles. As has been said before these titles only existed for a very short time, when the Fifty Second were first formed as a part of the 1st Airborne Division in December 1941 before it moved to the 6th A/B Division in May 1943.
The majority of the unofficial shoulder titles had very short lives, a matter on months at the most . During this time period the Fifty Second were in the Oxford area of England which would make it likely that the titles were all produced by the same tailor.

The differences seen in items of insignia such as SAS wings and titles is easily explained as in their eraly days they were produced by any number of tailors in the Middle Esat and Italy up until standardised wings and beret badges were produced in the UK later in the war when the SAS returned to the UK before D Day. Of course insignia was still being made in the Middle East and Italian theatre up until the end of the war for the SBS and RSR who wore the same design of badges and titles but had them made yo a certain extent privately and locally.

The titles do not appear on the market very often and all those I have seen in the last 30 years look like the ones that I have posted.

All I would say is that given the above I would not pay big money in the one that started this thread but having said that everyone must make up their own mind. If it had been me that bought it and I had seen the others that have been shown on the forum I would start to be a bit dubious.

It would be nice to see any others that forum members have in their collection so we can continue comparing. Maybe Keith could show his for comparison.

Cheers

Arnhem
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File Type: jpg fiftyt second shoulder title front and rear.jpg (45.6 KB, 32 views)
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  #21  
Old 20-02-21, 09:10 PM
Mike B Mike B is offline
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3 Battalion - 29th Rangers - what a couple of crackers you have in your collections

Arnhem - useful thoughts - thanks for sharing more images of great items.
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  #22  
Old 20-02-21, 11:20 PM
arnhem2280 arnhem2280 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by billy View Post
Hi this came with a card saying the owner of this badge was at Pegasus Bridge, but was also dropped into Arnhem, have tried asking the Museum in Belfast for help getting Officer's involved at Pegasus Bridge, so I might try and compare against those Officer's at Arnhem, (R.U.R. would narrow it down), but no joy from them!

It could be he was at Pegasus Bridge, but Arnhem is a family mistaken memory, not knowing the facts but a story which has just grown in the telling? Could any of you shed some light on this as I don't know how to begin looking for this type of stuff? Many thanks Billy
Hi Billy

If you want to let me have the details of the officer who the cap badge belonged to I will check and see if he was present at both D Day and Op Market Garden. Personally I doubt this . As far as I know the only men who served on both operations were members of the Glider Pilot Regiment. The main reason for this was that they were very quickly brought back from Normandy to the UK to continue training for future operations . Those in the Parachute and support battalions/ Regiments who were with the 6th Airborne tended to remain in the Normandy theatre of operations unless they returned to Britain for reasons such as being wounded until much later in the summer of 1944.
No one can say that this is 100% accurate and I would be very interested to find anyone who served on both operations apart from members of the GPR.

Cheers

Arnhem
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  #23  
Old 21-02-21, 12:25 PM
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Thanks for your contributions gentlemen, it is good to see my suspicion confirmed.
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