More New Zealand Engineers

[irish]

Hello, unsure if this warranted another thread but here goes, My 3 engineers. Gaunt, Stokes & Sons, and Sand cast "I think" All collars. Opinions and comments always welcome. Would these be WW1 or later? What is the feeling on the #3 cast badge.? Or cast badges of this type manufacture in general. Many thanks
Best
Jack

[Tinto]

Hi Jack,
First two hat badges are WW1 vintage. Cast badges are not common, this one possibly WW2 vintage.
Cheers, Tinto

[pukman]

IMHO, Egyptian made sandcast badges are historically underrated . Made to be worn when the official ones were unavailable .It sure beats one the ones that have sat in the Quarter Masters desk for the duration of the war

[irish]

Hello Fellas, much appreciate you looking in on my post.

The information on Egyptian sandcast is interesting. I have always been unsure what to call these.

Tinto, thanks for pointing out these are hat badges.

To Pukman's point regarding underrating of in country "theater" made pieces, here in the U.S. theater made pieces are always more sought after as opposed to known makers pieces issued by the unit. Differences in collecting tastes I guess. Again thanks for the info and comments
Best
Jack

[atillathenunns]

Hmmmm, nice hat badges, just need a New Zealand made one to complete the set.
The good thing is I agree the third one is all original, although, I am not too sure it is "sand cast badge," which would mean it was made in Egypt during WW1.
It is possible the third badge is simply a "cast badge," which seem to have been commonly made in New Zealand during WW2.
Without a hands on with the badge itself, I suspect WW2 period.

[irish]

Thank you for the additional information on cast badges. I have other badges made in this fashion and could never nail down where or when they were made. As pointed out they all look original and many of them appeared to have wear. I will post some others on another thread.

A few of the badges have within the cast a Gaunt London plaque on the reverse but very crude and cast into the back as opposed to a separate applied piece. So I am assuming the Gaunt badge was used to created the mold. Likely a wax mold within sand.

Again thanks for the input, this has helped me out.

Best
Jack

[atillathenunns]

Jack, interestingly I did take into account when evaluating your cast badge, that it did not have a Gaunt makers tab.
Gaunt were the official NZ Government suppliers of this badge from 1912 up until 1917, when they were dropped for overcharging, so I would expect the majority of WW1 Egyptian "sand cast badges" would show signs of the Gaunt makers tab.

Brent

[Milmed]

Hi,
Your sand cast badge is very similar to South African sant cast badges done in Egypt during WWII. The copper type lugs and brass material been identical, so these could have been done c.WWII. It wont be surprising however if the same people who made the WWII sand casts in Egypt may also have been doing the same during WWI.

Steven

[pukman]

perhaps a sharper photo of the cast/sandcast badge will tell the story. The Egyptian made badges have distinctive shape lugs .Badges were theatre made in both wars

[atillathenunns]

During WW2 members of the 2NZEF did indeed purchase sand cast badges from the very same Egyptian vendors who supplied them during WW1, however, as the 2NZEF were only permitted to wear onward badges while serving overseas, the WW2 sand cast badges were generally limited to only ‘onward badges’ and ‘NZ Expeditionary Force’ badges.

If it was indeed a WW2 Egyptian sand cast NZE badge purchased by a member of the 2NZEF, then it would have only been purchased for novelty or keepsake value, and not for actual wear.

Just so there is no misunderstanding from my previous post, the first NZE badges were issued on the 7th June 1912, having been paid for from Regimental funds, and are believed to have been obtained through Gilbert Beattie of Christchurch, who was an agent/representative of J. R. Gaunt.

[Corey]

Hello
Would any one know any info on the NZE cap badge variation on the right with the hex lugs.
It is only 1 or 2mm wider than the Gaunt one but has a different strike.
Cheers

[atillathenunns]

Hi Corey,
The one on the right was made in New Zealand, the NZE ghosting on the reverse shows that it took multiple strikes, which suggests to me that it was pressed in a smaller drop press compared to the Gaunt made badge.

Just out of interest, I have a history of the design of the 1911 New Zealand Engineers badge that was written by one of its Commanding officers, including most of the original badge designs that were sent in by each of the 4 districts. When I get time I will do a post on it.
Brent

[Corey]

Thanks Brent
Can you tell me why we used gaunt badges if we had the option of NZ made ones.
Also are the NZ made badges earlier or later use date wise.

And while I'm at it, did we also make a version of the larger Tunnelers NZE badge?

Cheers
Corey

[wright241]

A few of pics of fake NZE badges : a) one with its Gaunt plaque, and b) a NZERB badge stamped "SILVER" (now considered to be fake mark). Personally obtained from an Auckland Militaria shop badge back in 1983 when I was "passing by". He must have been happy at the time because I was not going to be in a position to return it..... Enjoy.
David

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Corey

Thanks Brent
Can you tell me why we used gaunt badges if we had the option of NZ made ones.
Also are the NZ made badges earlier or later use date wise.

And while I'm at it, did we also make a version of the larger Tunnelers NZE badge?

Cheers
Corey

Corey that is an interesting question and not an easy one for me to explain in just a few paragraphs.
The first thing you have to understand is the mentality of the time, which as you are probably aware, prior to WW1 most New Zealanders considered themselves as British.
Secondly most things used in everyday life, including all industrial machinery were mostly imported directly from England.

So it comes down to how J. R. Gaunt became the New Zealand approved badge supplier to the New Zealand Military Forces, instead of New Zealand or other British badge makers of the time?

The answer to that question IMO is marketing.

To market their goods throughout New Zealand, J. R. Gaunt used the services of the Chairman of the British Exhibitors Association, Mr Arthur day, who was responsible for representing a number of influential English firms at exhibitions that were held in New Zealand in the late 1800s and early 1900s.
Exhibitions in those days were big events and attracted large crowds and exhibitors from all over New Zealand. The 1907 Exhibition was held at the end of March in Christchurch, the exhibit put on by Arthur Day of gold and silver badges produced by J. R. Gaunt won a special award. This was basically the foot in the door that put Gaunt above all other British badge suppliers.

The transition from NZ Volunteers to NZ territorials in 1911 required a vast supply of new badges. Some regiments did obtain badges from NZ suppliers, such as the 9th Wellington Mounted Rifles who had Mayer & Kean produce their badges and others obtained theirs from other British badge makers, but the majority of New Zealand regiments and the NZ Government went with J. R. Gaunt, whose catalogues by that stage were available from most NZ jewellers.

In answer to your tunnelers badge question, I doubt that they were ever made in New Zealand