4th (Royal Irish) Dragoon Guards WW1 cloth badge

[3dg]

Hello
I've just finished reading'teenage Tommy', about Ben Clouten.
He was in the 4DG.
In the book he mentions about taking the wire out of their caps to make them soft, so aircraft could not make out the circles of the tops of the caps.
He also mentioned that they were issued cloth cap badges.
There is a photo of him with a fellow Private, I put a magnifying glass to his cap and he appears to have a worsted white 4DG on an khaki ovel shape.
I don't want to copy the picture, as it might be copyright.
Does anyone know of this badge or have an example?
Thank you for your time

[Jimbo66]

I have the attached badge but never seen it in white on khaki and certainly not worn as a cap badge. This badge was a should title worn prior to WW1. I have a copy of the book so will have to have a closer look. Jimbo

[3dg]

It is my assumption that its white on khaki, that certainly looks like the said badge

[3dg]

Originally Posted by Jimbo66

I have the attached badge but never seen it in white on khaki and certainly not worn as a cap badge. This badge was a should title worn prior to WW1. I have a copy of the book so will have to have a closer look. Jimbo

Page 61, it does actually say blue cloth badge.

[3dg]

I've taken a photo of the photo, should be OK, if you magnify it you'll make out the 4DG.Taken in 1917.

[3dg]

Hmm, I thought this thread would have sparked a little interest, or is it well known that that the cloth 4DG badge was worn?
And is it the one Jimbo has kindly posted

Cheers

[John Mulcahy]

I have not come across such a reference before and I would not have thought it was common knowledge

To the best of my knowledge the use of a cloth cap badge in the home service forage cap is unofficial. There are no records of sealing of a cloth cap badge in the RACH List of Changes that I have found nor can I recall a cloth cap badge being sealed for any other regiment for service dress at this time. The do not appear to be re-purposed WW1 economy slip on shoulder titles as I believe these were white on Khaki only. The pattern for the regiment was 8866/1916 and sealed May 29, 1916 as "titles WD embd SD cloth drab melton thick "4.D.G." (recorded in list of changes WO359 vol 16 page 21)

The regiment did not reply to the 1917 and 1919 National War Museum Survey (from what I have found of the Irish Cavalry regiments only the 8th Hussars did) so no help there.

The first reference I have found to cloth shoulder titles for the regiment is Sept. 18 1885, a sealing for "patches khaki drill for frocks" "4DG' Scarlet worsted (WO 359 vol 4 p 286). Clearly it is not these.

They might be re-purposed 1902 service dress cloth shoulder titles although I cant really tell from the posted image. Those titles sealed June 17, 1902 as pattern 5591a/1902 are described in the records as " Titles machine embroidered cotton blue on cloth yellow no 2 for jackets and great coats service dress cavalry. "4 D G" (WO 350 vol. 12 p 52). The letters were blue but the backing yellow - the use of the description "blue badge" in your book does not clarify things perfectly for me as I would have thought the yellow background was the majority of the badge colour.

An interesting prime reference and thanks for posting.

John

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by Jimbo66

I have the attached badge but never seen it in white on khaki and certainly not worn as a cap badge. This badge was a should title worn prior to WW1. I have a copy of the book so will have to have a closer look. Jimbo

Jimbo

would the background colour have once been yellow?, i.e. is this a remnant of a 1902 pattern service dress shoulder title ?

John

[3dg]

Interesting replies, thank you.
Ben says the wire was removed from our caps..to make them Floppy because of aircraft, he said about shiny cap badges which was sorted much later by the issue of blue cloth ones.
The photo is dated 1917

[cybershot]

Hi
I have attached part of a group photo of mixed Dragoon Guards soldiers taken around 1917.

I assume by this stage of the war there was a shortage of the standard ORs cap badge and the cloth badge was a temporary issue until badges became available.

Hope this helps the debate.

Bob

[3dg]

Great photo Bob, thank you.
Same badge as the one in the book.
The chap in the photo was with Ben in 1914, and its interesting that Ven says that the cloth badge was issued.
Unless he just saw new chaps joining with the cloth badge and assumed they were issued.
And his friend in the photo may have lost his original cap maybe?
All speculation I know, but I do find it interesting.

Chris

[John Mulcahy]

Originally Posted by 3dg

Great photo Bob, thank you.
... and its interesting that Ven says that the cloth badge was issued.
Unless he just saw new chaps joining with the cloth badge and assumed they were issued...

I agree with you, I would take the use of the word "issued' in this context as a very general one meaning that the rank and file were not required to pay for them.

I would not take it as they were issued by the Royal Army Clothing Department at public expense.

There is a high chance they were 'issued' by the regiment and paid for at the expense of the regiment. Many items were provided regimentally at this time including badge backings such as the green shamrocks worn by The Royal Munster Fusiliers,the special battalion badges worn on the service jacket, etc.

John

[Robthereiver]

Originally Posted by Jimbo66

I have the attached badge but never seen it in white on khaki and certainly not worn as a cap badge. This badge was a should title worn prior to WW1. I have a copy of the book so will have to have a closer look. Jimbo

Hello Jimbo

Interesting item thanks for posting it.

Could you possibly post a rear view of this badge and the dimensions of it please?

Regards
Rob