some australian shoulder titles

[MartinRF]

Hello,

The bottom row of that frame of badges contains my (paltry) Light Horse collection - so, between the 7th (image attached) and the 13th is a 10th Light Horse collar.

I have further attached - still a little off-topic, am afraid - an image of a cloth trade/qualification badge, worn on a greatcoat, which I have never managed to identify.

Also, I have never come across an Officer wearing a trade/qualification badge - well, here's one sitting among a group of Trench Mortarmen.

The only other exception was, perhaps, the picture of a Bandmaster marching/playing alongside the front rank (but he could well be a Warrant Officer, for all the detail the image gives).

Enjoy...

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[fairlie63]

Originally Posted by badgecollector

hi all
were the scouts badges authorised for wear by the AIF?
bc

Hi bc,

It's hard to establish what was authorised for the AIF in this line and I think a lot of it was a carry-over or assumption at that time that what was standard in the AMF was also standard in the AIF. Scout badges were not in use in the AMF at the time although the word SCOUT on a khaki diamond had been authorised in 1909.

Nothing appears in AIF lists of clothing and necessaries. The British scout badge was definitely worn in Egypt, see the book The Big Ride where both metal and large cloth badges were worn by the members of 3 LH Bde scout troop.

MG, LG, bombers and trench mortar badges were authorised in mid 1917 for AIF but I note bombers badges were authorised in 1 Aust Div about January 1916, and LG badges appear in 33 Bn ROs in May 1917. Crossed rifles were also extant, possibly in training units, and crossed flags appear to have been worn as a trade badge.

The majority were cloth badges, contracts for metal badges had just been accepted in March 1914 and I think copper oxidised skills, trades, etc, badges were mostly post-Great War. Will need to check PVCNs when I get home tonight.

Keith

[fairlie63]

Originally Posted by MartinRF

I have further attached - still a little off-topic, am afraid - an image of a cloth trade/qualification badge, worn on a greatcoat, which I have never managed to identify.

Also, I have never come across an Officer wearing a trade/qualification badge - well, here's one sitting among a group of Trench Mortarmen.

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MartinRF,

The badge on the greatcoat is a half-wing in a wreath with the letters AFC below. It was mentioned recently on the forum, another photo exists, and it is possible that it was a badge supplied by a military outfitter in Victoria who was under investigation for his illegal activities in this regard. It was entirely unofficial and appears to have been intended to represent the AFC, not a particular trade or skill.

The bombers grenade was authorised for officers, the trench mortar grenade was also worn by some infantry light trench mortar battery officers.

Are you saying all those copper oxidised Australian badges in your photograph were worn during the Great War?

Keith

[MartinRF]

Hello,

...probably going to get my A.I.F. collection ripped apart, but although there are 1939-45 versions of many of the same oxydised trade/qualification badges, when comparing the two: they are far more stout (i.e. they don't easily bend - by not having the higher copper content that 1939-45 badges at times have), they have quite a different oxydising finish to them, they have lugs same/similar to other A.I.F. cap/collar/title versions, their detail is finer/more crisp. Of course, I may be totally wrong...

I am not understanding just why the trade/qualification metal badges were oxydised after the Great War conflict? - I understood that the subduing nature of the oxidation process was less for preserving the badge, being more for security purposes - though I have found few photographs of the 1914-19 oxydised versions being worn.

I have attached a few images of some worsted equivalents...

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[MartinRF]

Hello,

...have found some dates for a few of the trade/qualification badges:

787. Badges - Machine Gunners, Bombers and Trench Mortar Batteries.
1) Proficiency Badges for Machine Gunners.
1st Class (Vickers) Machine Gunners with Machine Gun Squadrons and Companies will wear the arm badge already authorized by Musketry Regulations, i.e. letters "M.G." in laurel wreath. (Authority: G.R.O. 2291 of 7th May 1917.)
2) Proficincy Badges for Lewis Gunners and Hotchkiss Gunners.
1st Class Lewis Machine Gunners and Hotchkiss Gunners will wear Badges "L.G." in wreath and "H.G." in wreath respectively. They will not wear the "M.G." in wreath, which is reserved for 1st Class Machine Gunners. These badges will be worn, as in the case of 1st Class Machine Gunner's badge, on the left arm below the elbow. (Authority: G.R.O. 2291 of 7th May 1917.)
3) Badges for Regimental and Battalion Bombers.
Battalion and Regimental Bombers who have qualified in the tests laid down in "The Training and Employment of Bombers," will wear a distinctive bomber's badge of a grenade in worsted embroidery (khaki with red flame) on the right sleeve of the service dress jacket, the top of the flame 1/2 inch below the unit colour patch.
4) Distinguishing Badges for Men Serving in Trench Mortar Batteries.
Members of Trench Mortar Batteries are authorized to wear a badge consisting of a grenade in blue worsted embroidery on the right sleeve of the service dress jacket, the top of the flame 1/2 inch below the unit colour patch.
This badge will be awarded to all men serving in trench mortar batteries on the recommendation of Commanding Officers, and will be worn only while the men are serving in the batteries. (Authority: G.R.O. 1364.)
(Authority: D.A.G., A.I.F., 15/72 of 28.7.17.)

791. Badges. General Routine Orders, General Headquarters, Mediterranean Expeditionary Force, 31st January, 1916
It is noted for information that a badge for men serving in Trench Mortar Batteries has been approved.
The badge is a grenade in blue worsted embroidery and is to be worn in the same position as the badge authorized by Army Order 403 of 1915 for Grenadiers, i.e. on the right sleeve of the service Dress Jacket, The top of the flame 1 inch below the shoulder seam.

897. Badges - Regimental and Battalion Bombers.
With reference to para. (3) of A.I.F. Order No. 787 of 7.8.17, it is notified that in accordance with Army Council Instruction No. 1420 of 14.9.17, the badges for bombers will in future be embroidered all in scarlet instead of khaki with red flame as stated in the above quoted order.
Stocks of existing badges will be used up before the new badge is issued.
(Authority: D.A.G., A.I.F., 15/72 of 29.9.17.)

1127. - Badges for Bombers :-
1. With reference to A.I.F. Orders Nos. 787 of 7/8/17 and 897 of 5/10/17, it is notified that the issue of badges for bombers will, in future, be confined to:-
(i) Officer and N.C.O. instructors at Command and Army Bombing Schools and Corps Bombing Schools in France;
(ii) All Brigade, Training Brigade, Regimental, Battalion and Training Battalion bombing officers;
(iii) One N.C.O. Instructor in bombing per company in Training Battalions;
(iv) Battalion bombing Sergeant Instructors;
(v) The Officer i/c Bombing and N.C.O. Instructors in Bombing at Command Depots;
(vi) Officers and N.C.O. Bombing Instructors at Machine Gun Training Depot.
2. N.C.O.s and men, however, who though not employed as above, are already in possession of their badges, may continue to wear them.
(Authority: D.A.G., A.I.F., 15/102 of 14.2.18.)

1271. Physical and Bayonet Training Instructors - Distinguishing Badge. - Approval is given for the wearing of the "crossed swords" badge by members of the A.I.F. who are qualified P.T. & B.F. instructors with Aldershot certificates, as authorized in the British Army.
(Authority: D.A.G., A.I.F., 15/124 of 24.6.18.)

Also a few more of the worsted badge collection...

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[fairlie63]

Hello,

No, I'm not about to rip your AIF collection apart, I don't think that is the spirit of this forum.

What I can do however is enhance your knowledge of a couple of items in your collection.

Just in regard to your list of AIF Orders in Post #20, GHQ MEF GRO 791 of 31 Jan 16 is not an authorisation for Australians to adopt that particular badge. HQ AIF was the only authority for this and it is notable that when they did authorise the trench mortar badge the reference given was GRO 1364, issued in 1917 (January I think). HQ AIF had obviously not previously issued an order regarding this badge or it would have been referenced.

That does not mean it was not being worn - HQ 3 Aust Div authorised the letters TM in Wreath on the left forearm for their trench mortar personnel on 31 July 1916, and 1 Aust Div Standing Orders published in July 1917 refer to a light blue grenade.

For the badges in your photographs -

1. Crown and crossed guns: these were never produced in oxidised copper, in fact they do not appear in metal at all until PVCN 1919-20 where they are listed in gilt metal as a skill-at-arms badge for batteries and companies of artillery. They still appear in PVCNs up to 1931 but it is unlikely they were issued at any stage, and ceased to be mentioned in Standing Orders for Clothing in 1922. In fact Classification, the competitions for which the badges had originally been designed, had certainly ceased during the Great War.

Nor was the crown and crossed guns used in Australia to signify a warrant officer instructor as is often stated - the crossed guns were worn on the left cuff and rank badges were worn only on the right arm until 1949. All WO artillery instructors were members of the Australian Instructional Corps and graded either 1st, 2nd, 3rd or 4th Class Staff Sergeants-Major, wearing the Royal Arms in Wreath, Royal Arms, Crown in Wreath, or crown above four chevrons, respectively.

2. Crossed guns: these were added to PVCNs between 1925-26 and 1927 although they are referred to in SO Clothing 1922, in gilding metal only, and were for personnel who had passed the Gunnery Staff Course, which qualified men as Assistant Instructors-in-Gunnery. It was worn on the left arm only, above the cuff, and was also later worn by instructors at the School of Artillery, again on the left arm above the cuff. These were not produced in oxydised copper until 1940.

3. The artillery 'gun' badge: both the badges you display are from the period 1940-42, the top one appears to be the design by Henry Arendsen, a manufacturing firm of Malvern, Victoria, which dates its introduction from 1938 or 1939. The bottom one appears to be that of Stokes and Sons, a badge manufacturer also from Melbourne, Victoria, the design of which dates from 1930. Prior to the end of 1939 both these badges were supplied in gilding metal/brass.

The Australian 'gun' badge was not introduced until June 1930 (Military Board Circular Memorandum No 337 of 19 Jun 30). A design with AUSTRALIA in the top scroll in lieu of UBIQUE was approved in April 1930 but was never manufactured. Tenders were invited in July 1930 and Stokes was notified as the successful tenderer in September 1930. It was never worn during the Great War, or the '1913-30' period as often stated, plenty of primary source information relating to the recommendations for its introduction are digitised on the NAA website and the original authorities, etc, are in files held by the AWM.

After the Great War the Citizen Military Forces, the equivalent of your Territorial Army, were reorganized to replicate and take on the traditions of the AIF. Almost the whole of the officers and the trained cadre for the first and later contingents of the AIF had in fact been drawn from the CMF. In 1921 the badge of the Australian Army became the wartime 'Rising Sun', all corps and regimental badges being abolished. Officers, and all ranks of the Permanent Forces were allowed to wear gilt 'rising sun' hat and collar badges, the other ranks of the CMF wearing oxidised badges just as the men whose traditions they perpetuated did. It was a matter of
pride and recognition of sacrifice I imagine.

It is not until 1930 that corps and regimental badges were re-introduced to the Australian army and badges ceased to be oxidised. In late 1939 it was directed that all badges were again to be oxidised.

Hope this has been of assistance.

Keith

[MartinRF]

Hello,

...great information - and welcomed...

I do have just such a "T.M." inside a wreath in worsted cloth - attached image, though the adjoining "H" height-finder artillery qualification wasn't introduced until 1922 or so.

I have also included some more of the worsted badges I have...

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[MartinRF]

Hello,

Thought that I had already posted these particular images, the last of my worsted trade/qualification badge collection - but realized that I haven't ...enjoy...

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[kingsley]

Apart from the grenade badges (thanks for showing a really great lot!), it has always been my understanding that the various cloth trade and skill badges with white or light brown were British only (also most of the letters in a wreath).
I think the badges shown in this thread are mixed WW1 and WW2, and mixed British and Australian, and need to be separated.
I may be wrong but thought the 1st AIF only wore plain worsted khaki badges. Attached a scan of the few I have found.

[MartinRF]

Hello,

You may well be correct in the aspect of Great War Australian vs British worsted badge manufacturings. The WW2 British worsted badges are quite differently made, though, being either printed on gabardine, or machine-embroidered on to a wool-felt backing cloth. The 1920/30s additions to the pantheon of British Army trades carried on their manufacturing style in the manner of those of the latter Great War, i.e. flat; the heavy, thick, "Gamages"-style ones are pre/early Great War.

I pick up any Great War period worsted trade/qualification/prize/skill-at-arms badge that is seen being worn by A.I.F. personnel in photographs, so the majority of the images of the worsted badges I have posted are very likely British-made - some of which are scarce; e.g. Scouts,Riding Instructor,Regimental/Battalion/Company Best Shot prize,Matron,Senior N.C.O. Medical (Gold bullion ring),Volunteer Medical (Silver bullion ring),1st Class Hotchkiss Gunner, any of the horse trades. The intertwined "SB" is an exception, being ink-stamped 1915 Sydney(?), and the Medical badge to its right is on typical Australian cloth backing. The "LG" and "MG" 1st Class Gunner's qualification badges, without a wreath, I understood to have been used early by Guards units within the British Household Division (Grenadier/Coldstream/Scots/Welsh/Irish). Their dress regulations have often been different to other British Line Regiments throughout - those broad junior N.C.O. rank chevrons with the large cross-hatching down their length were intended for Guards units; there are pictures of A.I.F. personnel obtaining/wearing them.

On the topic of cloth shoulder insignia, does anyone know just why the 13th L.H. wore the Mounted Regiment colour patch and not one specific to themselves?

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[fairlie63]

Originally Posted by MartinRF

Hello,

On the topic of cloth shoulder insignia, does anyone know just why the 13th L.H. wore the Mounted Regiment colour patch and not one specific to themselves?

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Because I. ANZAC Mtd Regt were the 13th Light Horse Regiment. The three squadrons went to France as divisional cavalry, RHQ and the MG Sect were broken up in Egypt as the cadre of a LH training regt. A new RHQ was raised in Egypt when the corps mtd regt was formed.

The colour patch of I. ANZAC Mtd Regt was that already worn by 13 LH Regt although the authorities make it difficult to establish what colour should have been worn to the front, and in fact it can be seen being worn both ways in photographs.

Keith

[fairlie63]

Originally Posted by kingsley

I may be wrong but thought the 1st AIF only wore plain worsted khaki badges. Attached a scan of the few I have found.

Hi

I'm inclined to agree, those AIF blokes who left Australia already wearing trade/qualification badges would have been wearing Australian produced worsted items which as kingsley has described were plain. It is also the most likely source of any oxidised metal badges although these seem to be very few in comparison with cloth.

In the operational areas however this would have been different. Australia did not supply badges to its overseas forces (except possibly hat and collars?, and there were certain other articles of uniform, including boots) and each individual formation indented on the British supply system in France for its requirements. These in turn went through the normal British system in UK and thus badges supplied would have come from the British trade. HQ AIF in UK was an exception, it placed its own orders on the British trade but the result would have been the same, British manufactured and British pattern badges in both metal (brass, not oxidised) and cloth.

Same in Egypt, requirements for each formation were indented on the British system. In the case of colour patches a sample of the patch required had to be sent with the indent, I'm presuming for security reasons as local manufacture was used and the unit identification was no doubt with-held from the manufacturer.

There were also the military outfitters, no doubt the source of most of the unofficial types of badges being worn by Australians abroad, including the worsted AUSTRALIA titles.

Amongst your titles you have an unusual large sized RAA. These are made with separate brass letters sweated to an upper and lower bar and seem to originate wholly in the UK. All the edges of the letters are buffed down and it does not conform with any of the time periods that the large title was in use, particularly not during the Great War. I have one in my collection but I am suspicious of it. Do you have any knowledge of it?

Keith

[MartinRF]

Hello,

...I had wondered if the 1st Mounted Regiment had any other units within it other than the 13th L.H. - sooooo, is it safe to assume, then, that the same patch design was being worn by both the 13th L.H. (serving in the U.K./France) and the 1st M.R. (serving out in the M.E.F.)?

I have attached a more detailed image of the shoulder strap of my tunic; the various holes along it could not have been for officer's pips - different orientation of the lugs and it is an OR's tunic with a trade badge upon the sleeve. I assume the holes would have been for the letters "L.H." and the numbers: "1" and "3". Within the visit-recommended collection of the Invalides Musee de l'Armee, Paris, there are two A.I.F. manequins on display - one Infantry and one mounted; the large, crowded, wooden-trimmed, fish-tank type display cases are too close together in order to get a good photograph when I saw them years ago, am afraid. The mounted example has on the epaulettes a pair of very flat, much larger and broad "L.H." devices than I have ever seen before - with lugs as far apart as on my tunic. I live in hope of finding them and a pair of "3"s. Tomorrow I am off to a 350+ table military fair in Stonleigh Park, Conventry, so you never know...

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[MartinRF]

Hello Keith,

The large, gilding metal "R.A.A." titles used to be seen, in ones and twos, about the various fairs over the years so I picked up several, myself - but I haven't come across any of them for a very long time, now. The little oxydised, Australian-made "R.A.A." were among the last of the shoulder titles I secured (I found the "N.B.T.", "L.H.F.A.", "A.M.R." and "SIG.TR." before securing the first oxydised "R.A.A." - crazy!!!), so maybe they weren't as commonly worn in the U.K./France as the size of the unit would suggest. "I.N.F" are still about - the Canadian version is very different in size and generally without a securing bar above the lettering; "ENGRS", also, are to be seen - silly-priced as the Naval Division engineers used the same title and the dealers try to pass off the Australian examples as those (it might even have been the case that the Naval Division used the Australian examples whenever they could get hold of them for all I know); whenever I see a "L.H." about, I always buy those up.

Those large, gilding metal "R.A.A." titles have certainly been skillfully brazed-up, clearly from cut-up R.F.A./R.G.A./R.H.A. British shoulder titles of the period. The British "R.A." titles are 1924+ items, when the three regiments were combined, so the fact that these large "R.A.A." examples are always made from separate letters makes me think that they were done during the Great War period - if they were made up any later, then at least the first "A." after the "R." would/should have been left intact, merely adding a single "A." to the end of the ties. I haven't seen them being worn in any of my postcard photographs - yet.

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[MartinRF]

Hello,

...thought of attaching an example of a British late 1930s+ trade badge - Artillery, Gun Layer ("L" in wreath) - will post up a printed example if I get access to one...always good to know a little/lot outside of the prime period of collecting - have myself learnt much about 1930s+ Australian oxydised badges from this very thread...

Also, have included just a last couple of Camel Corps items I had framed separately to the others - and an Australian Armoured Car Section item.

This type of fixing cloth badges to tunics - i.e. with small metal hooks and cloth loops - was not uncommon in the Mediterranean Theatre of Operations. Attached are images of just such a tunic. The 1st and 2nd Australian Remount Unit embarked from Melbourne on the 12th November 1915. From reading their entire War Diary, there are only three candidates who could have served for a length of between 1,095 and 1,459 days overseas who held the rank of Major - think I know who it belonged to, but was wondering if anyone has any info on any of those who served within that unit, especially the period after they returned to Australia...

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