Walking Out Badges

[Jelly Terror]

Can anyone help, please?

Why were walking-out badges different in colour/constituent metals to a unit's regular (small 'R') badge?

Who wore walking-out badges and who did not?

When were they introduced?

Does anyone have access to the dress regs regarding this?

With thanks,

JT

[John Mulcahy]

To get you started, from "Regulations for the Territorial Force, and for County Associations, 1908. Para. 553 annotated "badges', "....in the "walking out" uniform they will be entirely in white metal or bronze except where special permission has been given for the adoption of gold lace and gilt ornaments see para 525"

Para 525 essentially states units that want to use gilt ornaments must apply through the county associations and each application will be reviewed on a case by case basis.

John

[Alan O]

JT.

This is a complicated area.

1. In 1908 some TF regiments had w/m badges authorised for 'walking out' wear. They often wore standard TF badges in khaki caps and then w/m badges in their coloured No1 dress caps. This was not universal practice and the majority did not especially when they had a bespoke TF badge that differed from the Regulars. For example there was only ever one bimetal version of the Suffolk TF badge, Dorsetshire TF badge or Northants badge ; all of which has blank plinths. There were also TF regts who had blackened versions for No1 Dress caps. I can only assume the reason for this was that the standard brass or bimetal badge, whilst it looked ok on khaki, often did not look as good as a w/m one on blue or green hats. So the old TF/VB lineage was both better reflected by the w/m ones and also looked better.

2. Typically with the TF they did not always follow strict rules and you see photos of Devon TF with black, w/m and bimetal badges in khaki caps. Often wore alongside each other. Many pre-war summer camp photos show TF soldiers wearing a mix of caps with badge - so khaki tunics with blue caps alongside khaki caps, a mix of badges as well.

3. The problem with pre-war TF is that who wore what is not well recorded as they fell outside WD sealed patterns and TF association bought their own badges.

4. In 1914 and post Ww1 all full dress (except Guards) was withdrawn and the TF ceased to wear anything but khaki. A limited amount of No 1 dress was held centrally as pool items so you do see the odd interwar photo of it in use at weddings etc. I have a photo of a relative in Blues in 1942 at his wedding.

5. In the 1930s a few regiments (Rifle Brigade for example) were wearing coloured FSC instead of the khaki caps or later the drab khaki side caps.

6. At the end of WW2 it became a fashion for the drab BD to be embellished for 'best' with a riot of coloured patches, tailored collar facings, ORs wearing collars and ties (this was formalised post war) and circa 1944 onwards the purchase of coloured side caps. Officers had been doing this for some years and the fashion spread to ORs. These side caps were often worn with nickel plated or chromed badges to enhance the 'style'.

7. You also find plated badges worn by the RAC infantry converts (King's Own certainly had their badges chromed in the RAC role but again some soldiers still wore the brass ones.

8. 1953 Coronation parade reportedly saw some units on parade have their badges chromed for the occasion.

9. In my opinion the majority of chromed badges were side caps or even plated for 'best' when worn with post war berets and are not RAC nor Coronation but dealers like to label them as such.

10. Beware Birmingham Mint w.m badges being sold as the above.

11. So with the exception of the TF Dress Regulations (KLR has published them on the forum) which do not list it by regiment, I am unaware of any Dress regulations for them as they were private purchase and regimental practice.

12. You find some regiment with w/m badge variation that are nothing to with TF nor walking out - so for example you get bi-metal KOYLI, pre-WWI w/m TF KOYLI, chromed KOYLI or side caps, w/m post WW2 KOYLI worn by all bns and finally w/m a/a.

Hope this helps.

[High Wood]

Can you please define the term "walking out badge"?

In my own definition, it is a badge worn on civilian clothing by a member of a Volunteer or Territorial battalion to indicate that he is a member of a particular regiment but not a regular soldier in the same regiment.

My understanding is that at the turn of the 19th century until relatively recently. a regular soldier would be in uniform outside of his barracks, i.e. on leave or with a pass, and everyone would be aware that he was a soldier.

I am not sure if the definition of a "walking out badge" includes those highly polished, altered badges beloved of old soldiers and the bane of Sergeant Majors.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by John Mulcahy

To get you started, from "Regulations for the Territorial Force, and for County Associations, 1908. Para. 553 annotated "badges', "....in the "walking out" uniform they will be entirely in white metal or bronze except where special permission has been given for the adoption of gold lace and gilt ornaments see para 525"

Para 525 essentially states units that want to use gilt ornaments must apply through the county associations and each application will be reviewed on a case by case basis.

John

Originally Posted by Alan O

JT.

This is a complicated area.

1. In 1908 some TF regiments had w/m badges authorised for 'walking out' wear. They often wore standard TF badges in khaki caps and then w/m badges in their coloured No1 dress caps. This was not universal practice and the majority did not especially when they had a bespoke TF badge that differed from the Regulars. For example there was only ever one bimetal version of the Suffolk TF badge, Dorsetshire TF badge or Northants badge ; all of which has blank plinths. There were also TF regts who had blackened versions for No1 Dress caps. I can only assume the reason for this was that the standard brass or bimetal badge, whilst it looked ok on khaki, often did not look as good as a w/m one on blue or green hats. So the old TF/VB lineage was both better reflected by the w/m ones and also looked better.

2. Typically with the TF they did not always follow strict rules and you see photos of Devon TF with black, w/m and bimetal badges in khaki caps. Often wore alongside each other. Many pre-war summer camp photos show TF soldiers wearing a mix of caps with badge - so khaki tunics with blue caps alongside khaki caps, a mix of badges as well.

3. The problem with pre-war TF is that who wore what is not well recorded as they fell outside WD sealed patterns and TF association bought their own badges.

4. In 1914 and post Ww1 all full dress (except Guards) was withdrawn and the TF ceased to wear anything but khaki. A limited amount of No 1 dress was held centrally as pool items so you do see the odd interwar photo of it in use at weddings etc. I have a photo of a relative in Blues in 1942 at his wedding.

5. In the 1930s a few regiments (Rifle Brigade for example) were wearing coloured FSC instead of the khaki caps or later the drab khaki side caps.

6. At the end of WW2 it became a fashion for the drab BD to be embellished for 'best' with a riot of coloured patches, tailored collar facings, ORs wearing collars and ties (this was formalised post war) and circa 1944 onwards the purchase of coloured side caps. Officers had been doing this for some years and the fashion spread to ORs. These side caps were often worn with nickel plated or chromed badges to enhance the 'style'.

7. You also find plated badges worn by the RAC infantry converts (King's Own certainly had their badges chromed in the RAC role but again some soldiers still wore the brass ones.

8. 1953 Coronation parade reportedly saw some units on parade have their badges chromed for the occasion.

9. In my opinion the majority of chromed badges were side caps or even plated for 'best' when worn with post war berets and are not RAC nor Coronation but dealers like to label them as such.

10. Beware Birmingham Mint w.m badges being sold as the above.

11. So with the exception of the TF Dress Regulations (KLR has published them on the forum) which do not list it by regiment, I am unaware of any Dress regulations for them as they were private purchase and regimental practice.

12. You find some regiment with w/m badge variation that are nothing to with TF nor walking out - so for example you get bi-metal KOYLI, pre-WWI w/m TF KOYLI, chromed KOYLI or side caps, w/m post WW2 KOYLI worn by all bns and finally w/m a/a.

Hope this helps.

John, Alan,

Thanks very much for your replies. A fair bit there to digest. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by High Wood

Can you please define the term "walking out badge"?

In my own definition, it is a badge worn on civilian clothing by a member of a Volunteer or Territorial battalion to indicate that he is a member of a particular regiment but not a regular soldier in the same regiment.

My understanding is that at the turn of the 19th century until relatively recently. a regular soldier would be in uniform outside of his barracks, i.e. on leave or with a pass, and everyone would be aware that he was a soldier.

I am not sure if the definition of a "walking out badge" includes those highly polished, altered badges beloved of old soldiers and the bane of Sergeant Majors.

Simon,

In my ignorance, I would define 'walking-out badges' as those badges worn by soldiers on the uniform when in public and 'not on duty' so to speak (in town/not in barracks etc.) I am hoping to be furnished with the precise (hopefully official) definition if my current understanding is incorrect.

JT

[Alan O]

JT

I would agree with your definition.

For badges worn with civilian clothing, most often on the lapel, then I wold use the term 'mufti' badge. Again these are often overlap/ confused with 'sweetheart' badges.

Alan

[Alan O]

One area I forget to mention was the post WW2 practice of wearing cap badges at Remembrance Day by ex-soldiers (I don't like the Americanisation of 'vet' that seems to have crept into UK parlance myself). Often these may be chromed or as I recently found out completely bespoke badges as in the case of the 1950's Queen's Own Buffs.

They add another variance in to the mix.

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Simon,

In my ignorance, I would define 'walking-out badges' as those badges worn by soldiers on the uniform when in public and 'not on duty' so to speak (in town/not in barracks etc.) I am hoping to be furnished with the precise (hopefully official) definition if my current understanding is incorrect.

JT

J.T.,

that is pretty much my understanding and to my mind, includes what used to be called "swank", i.e. those private modifications to uniform and badges done to impress the ladies whilst taking a stroll around the park on a saturday evening.

What, I don't understand is the idea that "walking out" badges may have been official issue as surely the original issued badge was considered enough to represent the regiment.

Of course, the plethora of modified badges may have been a cause for concern amongst the authorities and led to restrictions in their use and an authorised version for walking out being approved.

The whole issue of walking out badges appears to have been more regulated and official than I thought.

[High Wood]

Originally Posted by Alan O

JT

I would agree with your definition.

For badges worn with civilian clothing, most often on the lapel, then I wold use the term 'mufti' badge. Again these are often overlap/ confused with 'sweetheart' badges.

Alan

A good point which would make this a 'mufti' badge, as a Territorial soldier he is more likely to wear a 'mufti' badge than a regular.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=70380

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by High Wood

A good point which would make this a 'mufti' badge, as a Territorial soldier he is more likely to wear a 'mufti' badge than a regular.

https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/fo...ictureid=70380

Simon,

I always tend to think of mufti badges as being those purpose-made items that are sometimes fitted with crescent-shaped buttonhole fixings, or brooch-pin fittings (such as this example posted by James) and worn by men still serving.

The wearing of actual regimental cap badges on civilian clothing, I always associate with men wishing to demonstrate, either through pride or for the benefit of the white feather brigade, that they had done their bit for K&C. Am I wrong on that count?

JT

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by High Wood

J.T.,

that is pretty much my understanding and to my mind, includes what used to be called "swank", i.e. those private modifications to uniform and badges done to impress the ladies whilst taking a stroll around the park on a saturday evening.

What, I don't understand is the idea that "walking out" badges may have been official issue as surely the original issued badge was considered enough to represent the regiment.

Of course, the plethora of modified badges may have been a cause for concern amongst the authorities and led to restrictions in their use and an authorised version for walking out being approved.

The whole issue of walking out badges appears to have been more regulated and official than I thought.

I would say the opposite: the 1908 order allowed the TF associations to do this but most did not and there was no official policy but a general tolerance at regimental level of the practice.

Whilst the Regulars sometimes adopted unofficial badges, particularly in the cavalry, these were bought at regimental level as private purchase. Sometimes there were later endorsed by the ACD to become an issued item.

[Peter Brydon]

I believe there were cap badges produced with gilt and red ,white and blue enamel finishes as a sort of Celebration at the end of WW1.

The Kings Liverpool example I had was as a cap badge ,the same size and fittings but with the fancy finish. ( apologies for the quality of the photo ).

Does anyone know more about these badges or have any examples for other Regiments.

P.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Alan O

JT.

This is a complicated area.

1. In 1908 some TF regiments had w/m badges authorised for 'walking out' wear. They often wore standard TF badges in khaki caps and then w/m badges in their coloured No1 dress caps. This was not universal practice and the majority did not especially when they had a bespoke TF badge that differed from the Regulars. For example there was only ever one bimetal version of the Suffolk TF badge, Dorsetshire TF badge or Northants badge ; all of which has blank plinths. There were also TF regts who had blackened versions for No1 Dress caps. I can only assume the reason for this was that the standard brass or bimetal badge, whilst it looked ok on khaki, often did not look as good as a w/m one on blue or green hats. So the old TF/VB lineage was both better reflected by the w/m ones and also looked better.

2. Typically with the TF they did not always follow strict rules and you see photos of Devon TF with black, w/m and bimetal badges in khaki caps. Often wore alongside each other. Many pre-war summer camp photos show TF soldiers wearing a mix of caps with badge - so khaki tunics with blue caps alongside khaki caps, a mix of badges as well.

3. The problem with pre-war TF is that who wore what is not well recorded as they fell outside WD sealed patterns and TF association bought their own badges.

4. In 1914 and post Ww1 all full dress (except Guards) was withdrawn and the TF ceased to wear anything but khaki. A limited amount of No 1 dress was held centrally as pool items so you do see the odd interwar photo of it in use at weddings etc. I have a photo of a relative in Blues in 1942 at his wedding.

5. In the 1930s a few regiments (Rifle Brigade for example) were wearing coloured FSC instead of the khaki caps or later the drab khaki side caps.

6. At the end of WW2 it became a fashion for the drab BD to be embellished for 'best' with a riot of coloured patches, tailored collar facings, ORs wearing collars and ties (this was formalised post war) and circa 1944 onwards the purchase of coloured side caps. Officers had been doing this for some years and the fashion spread to ORs. These side caps were often worn with nickel plated or chromed badges to enhance the 'style'.

7. You also find plated badges worn by the RAC infantry converts (King's Own certainly had their badges chromed in the RAC role but again some soldiers still wore the brass ones.

8. 1953 Coronation parade reportedly saw some units on parade have their badges chromed for the occasion.

9. In my opinion the majority of chromed badges were side caps or even plated for 'best' when worn with post war berets and are not RAC nor Coronation but dealers like to label them as such.

10. Beware Birmingham Mint w.m badges being sold as the above.

11. So with the exception of the TF Dress Regulations (KLR has published them on the forum) which do not list it by regiment, I am unaware of any Dress regulations for them as they were private purchase and regimental practice.

12. You find some regiment with w/m badge variation that are nothing to with TF nor walking out - so for example you get bi-metal KOYLI, pre-WWI w/m TF KOYLI, chromed KOYLI or side caps, w/m post WW2 KOYLI worn by all bns and finally w/m a/a.

Hope this helps.

Not wishing to wander too far away from the main query here, I thought it might be of interest just briefly to add this info from Westlake's 'The Territorials 1908-1914'...

A distinction of the TF (because of their Volunteer origins) was that they should have silver or W/M lace and badges in place of any that were gold or G/M in the Regular Army. However, because this might single TF men out as being anything less than as good as Regulars, the practice was not popular with many men/units of the TF.

Since this was seen also as likely to affect recruitment, the WO made provisions in TF regulations for any unit that wanted to, to adopt G/M badges in place of W/M, though permission had to be sought through its county TF Association. Apparently, many units (but not all) applied, and every one that did, was successful in their application.

This then may also account for any number of W/M badges we see to TF units, so often attributed to being walking-out and bandsmen badges etc.

I wonder what info there may be (at TNA or otherwise) on early production numbers of W/M badges to TF units who eventually opted for the equivalent G/M versions?

JT

[KLR]

Please could you tell me what


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[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by KLR

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Julian,

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