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  #136  
Old Yesterday, 01:26 PM
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mike_vee mike_vee is offline
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Appreciate your input Tim , hopefully between us all we'll get as answer to this puzzle.

Here is a photo of a '9 ball' HMNZ Transports which has a C.M. Bay makers mark (Thanks to dumdum).

Edit : Added makers mark.


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File Type: jpg nz transports1.jpg (56.8 KB, 6 views)
File Type: jpg nz transports maker.jpg (86.9 KB, 4 views)
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  #137  
Old Yesterday, 01:39 PM
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Thanks Mike, the two mm's from the plain (yours and mine) look similar to me, furthering the confusion, lol
I got my badge off ebay, a few years ago, so it is certainly possible it is a copy. I'm keeping an open mind at the moment, hoping it isn't but will see where the evidence leads.

I'll add that after you comparing these to the 1914 OWS badge, I looked at 14 different makers of the 1914 badge, and all had 9 balls...

cheers, Tim
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  #138  
Old Yesterday, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
It's a good question as to the plain ones - were there 2 dies? But were there enough made to justify 2 dies? Maybe one broke and they had to make another?
Regarding 2 dies , I could understand that if it was only for the HMNZ Transports badge but the the fact that it also appears to have been the case with the 'silver' Admiralty badge is confusing.

Perhaps , the same person designed both badges and after an initial run the 'error' (too many balls ! ) was noticed and new dies were made.......


......or the 10 ball badges were badly made copies !

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  #139  
Old Yesterday, 04:09 PM
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I wonder, do the balls represent anything? Some symbolism or other heraldic reason? ie is there a reason they should be 9 and 10 is illogical?

We really need to call them 'dots' I think....
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  #140  
Old Yesterday, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
I wonder, do the balls represent anything? Some symbolism or other heraldic reason? ie is there a reason they should be 9 and 10 is illogical?

We really need to call them 'dots' I think....
Ahem, I believe they are called Pearls, Tim
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  #141  
Old Yesterday, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipper View Post
I wonder, do the balls represent anything? Some symbolism or other heraldic reason? ie is there a reason they should be 9 and 10 is illogical?

We really need to call them 'dots' I think....
There should be 9 because that is what the War Office decided !

"St. Edward's crown is the crown supposed to be heraldically represented when for State or official purposes the crown is represented over the Royal Arms or other insignia."

"...... during the reign of Queen Victoria many of the other details were very much "at the mercy" of the artist.

Soon after the accession of King Edward VII. the matter was brought under consideration, and the opportunity afforded by the issue of a War Office Sealed Pattern of the Royal Crown and Cypher for use in the army was taken advantage of to notify his Majesty's pleasure, that for official purposes the Royal Crown should be as shown in Fig. 642."

See photo

So , if this was the official War Office decision then any badge with 10 Balls/dots/pearls could not be an official issue.


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File Type: jpg Crown.jpg (86.3 KB, 6 views)
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  #142  
Old Yesterday, 11:12 PM
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Hi Mike and Chipper

Thanks guys for your input. Glad to know that there are other people who look at things in the same level of detail as I do!

The question of dies could quite possibly be answered by the breakage of the item. Steel hardening was a little of a "black art" way back and, I'm told, that many of the steels were water hardening which could result in excessive brittleness.

It's amazing what you can learn from the old fellows if you listen to them....

The maker's mark question could also be one of "Where the heck did we put that? Oh, let's just make another one!"
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