St Ignatius College KK 2672

[dubaiguy]

Yesterday on an online auction I noted a lot with three St Ignatius College badges. One similar to mine below with yellow/green enamel banding and two with with red/green banding.

KK describe the red/green banded badge as JTC (KK2672) but with the 2nd and 3rd quarters in bronze. Those at the auction looked white metal to me as is mine.

I'd really like to believe that the red/green and yellow/green banded badges with the 2nd and 3rd quarters in w/m are all JTC. But why the different colours and why are the quarters in w/m and not bronze as described by KK? Are they in fact just school badges, or perhaps an omission by KK?

Any other thoughts?
Mark

[Alan O]

My opinion is that they are all school badges that were sewn on to school caps.

It's possible the Cadet Corps used them in lieu of cap badges but the trend for the JTCs was the removal of school badges and the adoption of regular army cap badges.St Ignatius College badges.

There is a dearth of information about the CCF's history. There are numerous errors in K&K's chapter on school badges and I think that this is one of them.

[leigh kitchen]

Would the different colours on the badges simply be "house" colours?

[Alan O]

Not house colours but both have heraldic significance relating to the founders.

[dubaiguy]

Thanks Alan. Your considerable knowledge of OTC/cadet badges is very welcome. Perhaps documentary proof may turn up one day for their use by the JTC/CCF at some stage, but I'm resigned now that mine is in all likelihood a school badge.
Mark

[Alan O]

Mark

I have emailed the old-boys association and perhaps they will know the answer.

There is an Australian school who use the red-black bars on their badge where as the UK's school crest has the green-yellow.

Neither crest design matches the badge shown in K&K.

Alan

[Alan O]

This is taken from a school publication from the 1950s. As you can see it is not a match for the supposed JTC badge.

[Alan O]

I have a far closer match for your badge here:

http://www.loyola.essex.sch.uk/

It's another Jesuit School in UK but as a preparatory school would not have had a cadet unit.

The Loyala prep colours are red and gold from the Onaz family: originally seven red bars on a field of gold, represented the seven heroic brothers of the Onaz family who distinguished themselves in battle.

The combination of the Loyola and Onaz family bearings can be found on seals of Jesuit schools around the world. Ignatius Loyola being the founder of the Society of Jesus (Jesuits).

Where as the St Ignatius green bars over a gold background come from I am not yet sure.

[Alan O]

https://www.dnw.co.uk/auction-archiv...lot_uid=198268

Just to muddy the waters further - this lot did contain the correct school crest in enamel - K&K 2263 may be mis-identified as a cadet badge but it's the right school.

[dubaiguy]

Thanks Alan. Extremely informative. I certainly had no idea that the coloured stripes (bendlets - new heraldic word for me!) were connected to leading Jesuit families, though of course I assumed Ignatius was a Catholic School.

I hope you hear back from the old boys association, but I think you may have cracked some of it.

So here's a very tentative conclusion on my part from your posts:

Evidence of three different coloured stripes on the same design of badge shown in post 1:
1. Green/Gold – St Ignatius
2. Red/Gold – Loyola
3. Green/Red – Unknown but KK states also St Ignatius (KK2672)

My badge with the green/gold stripes I conclude is St Ignatius. The badge design was changed at some point around the time of the formation of the CCF to include the helm (KK2673), but the colours remain green/gold.

Unfortunately, there is no evidence, except the KK descriptions, that either the original or redesigned badge were worn by the JTC/CCF and until we hear to the contrary from the ‘old boys’ are school badges.

I’m going to stick my neck out and also conclude that the badge as post 1 but with green/red bendlets and described by KK as KK2672 St Ignatius, could be from a completely different Jesuit school as there would be no reason for St Ignatius to change the colours during redesign if those colours represented a particular leading Jesuit family associated with the school.

Ummm!
Mark

[Alan O]

The Army List for 1940 does not list the school and there is no online record of a JTC at all. Does anyone have a copy of Rawlings to see if there was a JTC title because the IWM only contains a CCF one. The CCF is in the London Gazette in 1950.

This is the 1941 list

https://digital.nls.uk/british-milit...=transcription

[Alan O]

https://deriv.nls.uk/dcn23/8994/89941410.23.pdf

K&K definitely have mis-identified the St Ignatius JTC badge - it's not the school cadet badge from that period as the school did not have a JTC in 1947 either. I think it is another Catholic School cap badge and not military.

Having looked at the back of the K&K badge it is clear to me that the 4 ring fixings are those of a school uniform cap badge and not a cadet badge. They would not big enough for a khaki cap, side cap or beret and are clearly designed for a thin cloth school cap.

The school's uniform badge (currently worn on the blazer pocket) is the green/yellow striped badge without the helm. The badge with the helm is the school crest.

[Alan O]

https://www.regimentalbadges.com/en-...dge/prod_22240

I do hope a Forum member did not buy this as the school did not have a JTC.

[manchesters]

It was £350.00 I believe.

best wishes

[Alan O]

Last one on ebay went for £30.