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  #1  
Old 28-10-22, 06:20 PM
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Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
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Default Military Police Helmet Plate VC 1885-1902

Hello all,
i have just added this helmet plate to my small Corps & Departments collection.
Following K&K it is a helmet plate for OR of the Military Foot and Mounted Police,KK1027, worn from 1885 until 1902 with a red cloth backing. The obverse showed small areas with booming verdigris, and i hat to remove the green salty verdigris to stop the process of corrosion. I guess this helmet plate is not very common and i am glad to have it in my drawer !
I have found some more helmet plates with the VR cypher in center, so for example for the Corps of Military Schoolmasters, and for a Militia-Battalion of the Glamorgan Militia (Westlake "British Home Service Helmet" page 106) but with the cypher in wm/silver.
So i conclude, this can only be the one for Military (Foot&Mounted) Police.
Hope you like it also, any comments welcome,
kind regards
Markus
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  #2  
Old 28-10-22, 06:45 PM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is offline
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Sold my near mint blue cloth helmet with badge to a member a few years ago
David
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  #3  
Old 28-10-22, 07:08 PM
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Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
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Hello David,
must be a very impressive helmet. I have not found any pics of it or other similar badges on the forum:
The only pic i have found in the net was from a plate sold in the past by Cultman, mint gilding and an other construction reverse. The cypher fixed with blades and a round backplate.
My badge ist not a shining beauty, but i like the honest patina after 120 years or more.
I would be very glad to see the real kind or "red backing", perhaps you can show a picture of the helmet you have sold ?
The same question with my APC KC Helmet plate, i have added an old green felt backing, but close to the original colour ?

Thanks and kind regards
Markus
I am
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  #4  
Old 28-10-22, 08:19 PM
49lassiepen 49lassiepen is offline
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Marcus sorry don't have any photo ,but Ido remember that I purchased it from Wallis and Wallis then they were the military auction house to go to -some members may remember the old wooded structure where they had the auctions
Re honest patina I ways give my items a once over clean to remove patina/dirt
Just returned from one of my many visits to the regiment museum in Dorset ,all I can assume that all the items are fake as not a single dirty item on display or on uniforms many named to officers Even a unique frame from 1900 of cavalry/infantry/corps caps and collars nice and shiny [tongue in cheek reply don't like dirty items badges or medals ]
David

Last edited by 49lassiepen; 28-10-22 at 08:39 PM.
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  #5  
Old 23-11-22, 03:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Bodeux View Post
Hello all,
i have just added this helmet plate to my small Corps & Departments collection.
Following K&K it is a helmet plate for OR of the Military Foot and Mounted Police,KK1027, worn from 1885 until 1902 with a red cloth backing. The obverse showed small areas with booming verdigris, and i hat to remove the green salty verdigris to stop the process of corrosion. I guess this helmet plate is not very common and i am glad to have it in my drawer !
I have found some more helmet plates with the VR cypher in center, so for example for the Corps of Military Schoolmasters, and for a Militia-Battalion of the Glamorgan Militia (Westlake "British Home Service Helmet" page 106) but with the cypher in wm/silver.
So i conclude, this can only be the one for Military (Foot&Mounted) Police.
Hope you like it also, any comments welcome,
kind regards
Markus
Markus please believe me when I say that I’m not telling you the following information to rain on your parade. The badge you depict was never worn by the Military Mounted Police or the Military Foot Police. Instead they wore a vertically elongated star plate of Dragoons type**. As well as the helmet plate they wore Dragoons pattern cuff knots on their full dress tunics. Unfortunately an erroneous identification of your badge in the Kipling and King book on British Army badges has been accepted as gospel. I am positive this information is correct and have discussed it with the researcher and author at the CRMP Museum, Toby Brayley.

Original artwork by a prolific artist, Ernest Ibbotson, who always sketched and painted from life depicted the uniform and insignia accurately, unfortunately modern artists such as Bryan Fosten and Alix Baker, who could not work from life researched as best they could and as both accepted the Kipling and King reference they painted the helmet insignia incorrectly.

**inspired by the MMP mounted status and a historical nod to previous military police known as the Royal Staff Corps, who had acted as the Duke of Wellington’s provost police, until being disbanded at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. They had been mounted and dressed in the Dragoons style.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 23-11-22 at 06:10 PM.
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  #6  
Old 23-11-22, 04:19 PM
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Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
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Hello Toby,
thanks for your comment and interesting informations.Your informations are correct, without doubt. The two Gale & Poulden´s postcards are also published in "A guide to the Home Service Helmet" by Westlake, and we can cleary see the 4-pointed Dragoon-style star.
Westlake gives a source for the standard helmet plate with the "VR", an article published in May 1972 by LtCol Poulsom in "The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society", two helmet plates with VC and "VR"-cypher shall be shown in this article.
Can this standard helmet plate been a short live (or not introduced) interim solution for the Military Foot Police to distinguish them from the MMP ?
Would be interesting to get a copy of this article, may be someone has this issue from may 1972.
Otherwise i can not find any use for this gilding "VR"-cypher with the standard helmet plate.

Thanks again and kind regards
Markus
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  #7  
Old 23-11-22, 04:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Bodeux View Post
Hello Toby,
thanks for your comment and interesting informations.Your informations are correct, without doubt. The two Gale & Poulden´s postcards are also published in "A guide to the Home Service Helmet" by Westlake, and we can cleary see the 4-pointed Dragoon-style star.
Westlake gives a source for the standard helmet plate with the "VR", an article published in May 1972 by LtCol Poulsom in "The Bulletin of the Military Historical Society", two helmet plates with VC and "VR"-cypher shall be shown in this article.
Can this standard helmet plate been a short live (or not introduced) interim solution for the Military Foot Police to distinguish them from the MMP ?
Would be interesting to get a copy of this article, may be someone has this issue from may 1972.
Otherwise i can not find any use for this gilding "VR"-cypher with the standard helmet plate.

Thanks again and kind regards
Markus
In answer to your question the research of the RMP Museum, Toby Brayley, myself and my Co-researcher Bruce Bassett-Powell of Uniformology.com, has found no evidence whatsoever that the badge you depicted was worn by any part of the CRMP. If you look at the B&W photos of the SNCOs on foot, they are MFP. The photographic archive has been scoured and nothing remotely similar found. Bruce and I did a series on badges and other insignia for uniformology.com and showed the similar helmet plate used by the Inspectors of Army Schools. See series here: http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html

All previous headdress badges of similar design, but used on shakos (i.e. preceding 1878) were for Garrison Staff. At that time garrison staff personnel such as staff clerks, sergeant majors and quarter-master-sergeants employed in headquarters, or war office departments, and funded away from their parent regiment, were obliged to wear generic insignia with VR at the centre. We know that later the policy changed and instead the insignia of parent units was retained. This removed uniformity, but was a cost saving, as generic uniform and insignia no longer needed to be funded. Ergo I think it likely that your helmet star plate probably relates to garrison staff other ranks. In undress (headdress) these men wore the Royal Cypher (‘VR’ until after 1902) either, in bullion wire, or gilding metal, depending on their rank.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 28-11-22 at 11:16 AM.
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  #8  
Old 23-11-22, 05:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Markus please believe me when I say that I’m not telling you the following information to rain on your parade. The badge you depict was never worn by the Military Mounted Police or the Military Foot Police. Instead they wore a vertically elongated star plate of Dragoons type**. As well as the helmet plate they wore Dragoons pattern cuff knots on their full dress tunics. Unfortunately an erroneous identification of your badge in the Kipling and King book on British Army badges has been accepted as gospel. I am positive this information and have discussed it with the researcher and author at the CRMP Museum, Toby Brayley.

Original artwork by a prolific artist, Ernest Ibbotson, who always sketched and painted from life depicted the uniform and insignia accurately, unfortunately modern artists such as Bryan Fosten and Alix Baker, who could not work from life researched as best they could and as both accepted the Kipling and King reference they painted the helmet insignia incorrectly.

**inspired by the MMP mounted status and a historical nod to previous military police known as the Royal Staff Corps who had acted as the Duke of Wellington’s police until being disbanded at the end of the Napoleonic Wars. They had been mounted and dressed in the Dragoons style.
Toby the bottom 2nd from the right, the chap has 3 medals. What do you reckon the 3rd medal is ?
Andy
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  #9  
Old 23-11-22, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Toby the bottom 2nd from the right, the chap has 3 medals. What do you reckon the 3rd medal is ?
Andy
Long service and good conduct Andy. It didn’t have a white edging at the time.
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  #10  
Old 23-11-22, 08:44 PM
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Thanks Toby.
Andy
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  #11  
Old 24-11-22, 07:36 PM
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Markus Bodeux Markus Bodeux is offline
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Thanks Toby for sharing your deep knowledge, much appreciated !
I know http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html and used it for example to research the correct backing of helmet plate centers. Very good made and informative site !
Of course i saw the Schoolmasters in K&K and i would expect that their cipher is made from white metal or silvered, silver plated. No traces or residues of silvering or silver plating on my cipher.
I think your conclusion that this cipher was worn by members of other staffs is logical and eloquent, may be garrison staff personal.

I dont think that this bar with the cipher is fake or fantasy, it absolutely gives the impression of a contemporary badge.

So i will keep it in my small collection of corps & departments, but with a questionmark who may have worn this badge .......
May be one day the missing source will show up.

Thanks again and kind regards
Markus
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  #12  
Old 26-11-22, 07:05 PM
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Coincidently the latest MHS Bulletin arrived today and there is an article on disputed MP badges!
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  #13  
Old 28-11-22, 11:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Bodeux View Post
Thanks Toby for sharing your deep knowledge, much appreciated !
I know http://www.uniformology.com/INSIGNIA-00.html and used it for example to research the correct backing of helmet plate centers. Very good made and informative site !
Of course i saw the Schoolmasters in K&K and i would expect that their cipher is made from white metal or silvered, silver plated. No traces or residues of silvering or silver plating on my cipher.
I think your conclusion that this cipher was worn by members of other staffs is logical and eloquent, may be garrison staff personal.

I dont think that this bar with the cipher is fake or fantasy, it absolutely gives the impression of a contemporary badge.

So i will keep it in my small collection of corps & departments, but with a questionmark who may have worn this badge .......
May be one day the missing source will show up.

Thanks again and kind regards
Markus
I’m glad to help Markus and agree with your conclusions. As things stand it seems that ‘other ranks’ (i.e. enlisted men) of the Garrison Staff is the most likely.
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  #14  
Old 28-11-22, 11:17 AM
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Coincidently the latest MHS Bulletin arrived today and there is an article on disputed MP badges!
I imagine that Toby Brayley might have contributed to it.
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  #15  
Old 28-11-22, 01:39 PM
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He did indeed.
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