Legion of Frontiersmen

[mtrpltpara]

Interesting that the 3rd type has the words God Guard Thee. These are also related to the 23rd Battalion (Sportsmans)

Bill.

[atillathenunns]

The so called "third pattern" badge is that of the “Independent Overseas Command LOF" and is circa 1930.

It’s kind of complicated when it comes to exact dates as many of the Legions records were destroyed by bombing during WW2, but roughly goes along these lines-

In 1927 Captain Pocock with Col. D.P. Driscoll, DSO broke away from the Imperial Command and formed the European Command Legion of Frontiersmen, with Driscoll as the first Commandant general and Pocock as the first Commissioner. The European Command was comprised mainly of former members of the 25th Battalion (City of London Regiment) Royal Fusiliers.
I am unsure when the European Command LOF was renamed International Overseas Command LOF, but think it was either 1928 or 1930.

Generally speaking the 3rd Pattern badges had a short service time as the Imperial Overseas Command rejoined the original Imperial Command LOF around 1935/6, although I am sure they would have been worn well after 1936.

[Alan O]

Thank you very much for that information. It certainly confirms the view that the badge has been mis-identified in the past as a WW1 badge.

[Neil Pearce]

Indeed this is excellent information.

Is there anything published on this? I know it's been a long standing question for many (myself included). Not that I doubt the info given, it'd just be good to see photo's or similar.
Cheers, Neil

[atillathenunns]

Just out of interest, the button hole type badge that Ian has posted was the badge that was most prized by members of the LOF, as it shows their LOF enrolment number.
I have one that is numbered 19644, and the LOF records for 19644 show a date of 193-.
Unfortunately the LOF records officer neglected to fill the last part of the date, but it is likely to be around 1933
So number 21245 would date later than 1933.

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by Neil Pearce

Indeed this is excellent information.

Is there anything published on this? I know it's been a long standing question for many (myself included). Not that I doubt the info given, it'd just be good to see photo's or similar.
Cheers, Neil

Neil, a while back as an LOF outsider I made some controversial claims about the beginnings of the New Zealand Command of the Legion of Frontiersmen. This brought me to the attention of some of the Legions historians who tried to at first debunk my claims, but in the end agreed my research was correct.
The information I have posted in this thread comes direct from one of the four LOF official historians.

[Neil Pearce]

That's very reassuring atilla. Good to know.

Is it not possible though that the "fourth" pattern is the one you refer to as the IOC LOF? I confess I don't possess info on the fourth pattern, but does another version exist? To date I have only concentrated on 25th Battn Badges.

I have information from reliable notes that suggests (at least to me) this may be the case. The information came from Hugh King in 1981, and I confess not quite clear. The source was my father, who stayed with him during that year, and always made copious notes on most subjects they discussed. The notes include lengthy discussions on various subjects

The badges Hugh King had were from a LOF member who had served in N Africa. Later York and Lancs. My first "garage" pattern is likely from this source (not the third pattern I have). This is probably why he surmised they were all 1WW period. He was convinced of the provenance at this time, but not certain of dates.

One of course has to consider the possibility this guy served with IOC... one would need his name, which I don't have unfortunately.

Importantly, why would an IOF badge be marked "25"? Surely, if the dates you mention are indeed correct, then the 25th Battn had been disbanded some 12 years previously. Would they have been allowed to adopt this "momento". Given what has been discussed previously on the forum, and rules relating to badges and insignia, I have to doubt this

I have never seen any pictures of the "officers" version being worn, and this continues to worry me. You could easily be right, but just being devils advocate.....! Interesting stuff.

Cheers, Neil

[atillathenunns]

Neil, I must admit that I am uncomfortable with the terminology ‘third pattern’ and ‘fourth pattern,’ and to be quite honest I am also uncomfortable with the terminology ‘1st pattern’ and ‘2nd pattern.’
In fact this thread is first time I have encountered these badges being referred to as such.
(Could you post a picture of the ‘fourth pattern’ so I know which badge we are talking about)?

I have many unpublished photos of LOF men that date from between 1904 to 1953.
The majority of these photos were given to me by various LOF historians to help me with my LOF badge research. Unfortunately due to an agreement, I cannot release the pictures without permission.

However I don’t think it would hurt by posting the following two photos.

LOF Independent (International) Overseas Command badge (description says - from 1929 onwards)


Imperial Legion Badge

[atillathenunns]

I should mention I have some good photos of officers and men of both the 25th Battalion and the 210th Canadian wearing badges.

[Neil Pearce]

Attilla

Thanks for these. Excellent viewing. I also agree with your reluctance to accept the "First, second and Third" patterns. I believe this terminology is used purely because of Kipling and Kings book. I believe the thread here was primarily focused on the 25th Battn, but understandably has been a little sidetracked

I also accept that the badge (third pattern or is it 4th pattern?) you posted is similar for the IOC. It is not the same though. Granted, your theory is sound, I still would prefer to see photographs or documentary proof. I know there are quite a number of people with an interest in this, and it would be great to be able to put this question to rest without the slightest shade of doubt.

To my mind, there is more than a distinct possibility the badge in question WAS worn during 1WW. It may well have been worn afterwards. The difference to collectors is significant, as I'm sure you appreciate

Perhaps the historians would grant permission to post the pictures?
Cheers

[SteveE]

My first post so please go easy on me . I've been following this thread with interest on and off since I joined over a year ago as the 25th RF are a major interest of mine and it's been interesting to see how the thread's developed.

I'm not a collector but have a keen interest in the battalion and it's badges so I'm always on the lookout for photos etc. showing anything of interest.

Like Neil, I've never found an image of the '4th Pattern' badge* (K&K Ref.1144) being worn by a serving member of the 25th RF, only by post-war L of F personnel so I've always assumed it's been a post-war 'old comrades' badge. There are a few images that show it being worn but perhaps the clearest one I've got is the one attached which shows it being worn by Roger Pocock at Daniel Driscoll's memorial service in 1934.

Regards

Steve


* I use the term '4th Pattern' based on the images shown in Ray Westlake's "Kitchener's Army" book.

[Neil Pearce]

Great post Steve!

From the image, I can't see the badge as clearly as I'd like, but this looks to be as if there is no "loop" bearing the title "Independent Overseas Command". As you have the original, can you clarify this?

The likelihood of this being post war is increasing. Perhaps veterans, as you suggest. The question I guess is "when" was it introduced, and sanctioned?

What is the earliest picture you have showing this pattern worn please?

It's clear to me that we are dealing here with variations on a theme. The badge referred to as "third" or "fourth" pattern.

Any further comments gents? Must be more info out there somewhere?

Cheers, Neil

[atillathenunns]

Hi Steve, welcome to the discussion, the more people we bring on board to add their pieces of the puzzle, the quicker we will hopefully uncover the mysteries of the 25ths badges.

Unfortunately I do not have the Kipling book. I stopped collecting British WW1 badges 30 years ago, so my British badge books are somewhat out of date.

Also thankyou for posting the photo, it is another nail in the coffin for the badge in question being a LOF Command badge as worn by the Independent Overseas Command.
Interestingly I have a nice photo of Roger Pocock taken in 1935 during his NZ Visit where he is wearing the second type general pattern LOF hat badge that was introduced in 1926 (1st issued in 1927), which appears to fit with the dates that I mentioned in my first post.

Hopefully Tinto who is a forum member and has posted some of his nice IOC LOF badges on another thread on this forum will join the discussion, as I know that he has done his own independent research on these badges.

Neil, unlike the 25th RF Battalion which served together as a unit, the breakaway Independent Overseas Command comprised of members that were located all over the world, as such there are a number of slight variations to the IOC badge.
I would speculate that the IOC badge art work that I have posted was used during a special get together of IOC members.

This is a New Zealand made version of the IOC badge.



In regards to the historian granting permission to post pictures, well I have to say that there is one that I am absolutely gagging to post here. The photo is of Driscoll and 13 officers of the 25th RF Battalion and was taken shortly after the battalion returned to England.
Interestingly it shows two types of hat badges being worn, and all are wearing the same collar badges.
(The so-called first pattern badge is not one of the two badges)

Unfortunately the historian whose permission I need, is unlikely to give it to me for a couple of reasons.
First up he thinks I have written or am in the process of writing a book on the LOF. This is totally incorrect, as I have no ambitions to write a book.
The second problem is that I “freely” offered my own research to other historians, in particular I unwittingly offered my research to a rival LOF historian who just happens to run a web site that is in opposition to the one that he supports.

Although I may be caught in a feud between two waring LOF historians, I think if we get Tinto on board, he may be able to get permission to use the photo.

Worst case scenario, I will crop some of the photo down to just a shoulders and head shot so it does not ruin the integrity of the original photo, but I would rather avoid doing this.

Brent

[Alan O]

Brent,

Great picture. the more I read about these enamelled badges the more I am convinced that this is another legacy of Kipling and King's mis-attributation and they were wrong that it was a WW1 era badge.

[Neil Pearce]

Brent and Alan

Agreed. To use Brents phrase, the nail in the coffin is almost there!

The NZ version of the badge is uncannily similar to the one in question here. Great to have these contributions from "Overseas". Tinto, where are you?!

I would love to see the pic referred to with Driscoll, and bad news about the historians war. Let's hope for a cropping perhaps? This would be most interesting. Thirteen of them would be 13 nails as far as I am concerned... I am also interested to see what the collar badges look like
Cheers
Neil