RND cap tally

[JON188]

Your thoughts on this chapsCame out of a very old frame.
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[JON188]

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[Nozzer]

Post 1984 weave I'm afraid

Andy

[JON188]

Good job it didn't cost the earth lol
Will try and buy the wife back
Thanks pal
Jon

[RCN]

For information & an example for future reference:

Here is an example of what appears to be an original RND ribbon.
Just posted very recently on a medal dealer's site.

RCN Bryan

[JEMS]

Hi Andy. New to the site. Could you explain/show the types of weave to tell difference please.

[Hussar100]

I'd like to know too mate as there's a helluva difference between a WW1 tally and one done post 1984.

[NEMO]

HI , easiest way is get ya self a nice cheap original simple H.M.S tally of ebay doersnt matter if tatty , then just compare it to other you may see ? , if you match it up side by side to a modern example the differences are quite easy to spot -with a little practice.

if I can find an old an a new one I will do a side by side image

[Nozzer]

Originally Posted by JEMS

Hi Andy. New to the site. Could you explain/show the types of weave to tell difference please.

As requested, top to bottom;

1, late WW1 economy pattern in yellow thread

2, 1930's gold wire

3, Post WW2 (late 1940's - early 1950's)

4, 1960's

5, Early 1970's to 1984

6, Post 1984 to about 2004

Cap tallies changed little in manufacture from before WW1 until WW2. After 1945 named tallies were not immediately issued, but Tallies could be purchased from private sources (tailors). The "VANGUARD" tally shown below is a classic example from this period (note the different "R"). In the 1950's official issues were commenced again and for a brief period the full stop was shown after the ships name until about 1956, I think? Unfortunately my paperwork with all the information is lost, so this is taken from memory.

The way to tell a 1950's - 60's tally from a 1970's is the feel. The latter is not as soft as the earlier examples and the gold wire not as fine.

In the 80's the manufacture changed to show the full weave on the back. After about 2004 (I m not sure of that date) new tallies were issued. I have some somewhere, but I avoided them if possible as they are awful. The lettering was not consistent and they where hard to tie in a decent bow.

I no longer actively collect, but I understand that the manufacture has changed back to the full weave type. Perhaps someone can confirm this?

As I mentioned earlier, my notes are lost. If anyone can supply the the information specifically relating to the issuing of cap ribbons post WW2, I would be very grateful.

Andy

[NEMO]

SUPERB POST , learned a lot , thank you for taking the time

[RCN]

SUPER! Thanks for posting. Andy!

To supplement your post I will add some 1WW & between the wars cap ribbons.

Many years ago I was fortunate to acquire the medal group & insignia of a 1WW RNVR sailor, he served from pre 1WW, thru 1WW (mainly on HMS Agincourt), thru the interwar years with regular ship postings, & 2WW. He served on several capital ships in the interwar years & saved all of his cap ribbon when he was a rating prior to being promoted to CPO during the interwar period. Fortunately I was able to obtain the entire lot thus keep it together & saved from being broken up.
I have kept all the items together for many years.

Here are some of his cap ribbons. All are gold wire weave & all have the ubiquitous dot after the ship name. Most are quite dark as they were all worn.

The RNVR London & HMS Agincourt are 1WW. The others are between the wars & mostly 1920's. I have his original Service parchments so can supply exact dates if that is required.

RCN Bryan

[RCN]

Here are some of the inter war ribbons:

The ribbons of this period, are usually distinguishable by feel, they have a whole different feel than the modern ribbons (1950's period) & hold then up to the light, they are fairly thin so some day lite can bee seen thru the black, they also look old, & have some, or considerable age patina like those I have shown.

RCN B

[Nozzer]

Thanks chaps

Below are two interwar tallies. VALIANT is from the launch in 1916 in to the 1920's. The style of lettering is quite narrow and the ribbon has very faint lighter/darker vertical lines(not sure if this can be made out in the scan?). Of course, I am confident that this style of tally was being worn in the 30's and also pre-dates WW1 by some time.

The VICTORY tally is from the 1930's. The lettering is now slightly "fatter" (note the difference in the V's) and the full stops are also larger.

Regards,

Andy

[Nozzer]

Next are two tallies from the 1950's.

The full stop is now being used again as shown on ALAMEIN, but differs in construction from the those manufactured in the 1930's. The weave is not as tight and the wire is lighter in colour. This style is also found without the "dot" after the name as shown in ALAUNIA, which is similar in style, but not quite (note the top of the "A's")

I understand that the "dot" disappeared in the late 50's (a clerical error perhaps?) never to reappear......

I chose ALAMEIN as an example because it makes an excellent example to assist in dating post war tallies. There has only been one Royal Navy warship with this name, a "Later Battle Class Destroyer" launched in 1945 and commissioning in 1946. She was placed in reserve in 1959 and broken up in 1964.

I hope this has been of some help,

Andy

[Nozzer]

One more.......

The BULWARK is one of the tallies from the 2000's and I think most would agree it is awful!

It is shown above a tally from the 1960's.

The next picture shows the new issue tally for H.M.S. OCEAN. It is brighter than the scan would have you believe and has a full weave across the back. It is shown above one from the 1940's (note the "R" again!).

Andy