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  #46  
Old 06-07-19, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Who and what rank is the 3rd photo of please ? His wearing the worsted grenade, i believe. There is a photo in my album which shows this grenade being worn.
Andy
Yes, I was only showing him to illustrate the third pattern cap (“for wear in the field”), he’s not a QM. He is an officer though so the grenade is likely small, bullion wire. At that time second lieutenants did not wear rank stars. Lieutenants wore one star and captains two.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 11:45 AM.
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  #47  
Old 06-07-19, 11:35 AM
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Yes, I was only showing him to illustrate the third pattern cap (“for wear in the field”), he’s not a QM. He is an officer though so the grenade is likely small, bullion wire.
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
There is no God, Jesus or Christ, and certainly no proof nor will there be.
I thought only the Commanding Officer, Adjutant and Senior Major were the only one's to wear the frock coat ?!
I have been to the Museum many times and have asked many questions, no answer has justified these badges being worn by the Quartermaster.
However I'm all for keeping an open mind, its just when someone says " yes it's a so and so " but with no evidence. That in this game is just so wrong. I'm all for learning though. So back to the badge at the beginning of this thread, who wears it ?
Andy
Enclosed are images of Scots Guards quartermasters, one in undress 1890, the other in full dress review order, less headdress, in 1860. Both images are from published periodicals at the time. The frock-coat was worn by all officers Andy, I did mention to you before about not being hidebound by the era of your own service.
I’m not talking about going to the museum and asking questions, but examining archives yourself. You know yourself that not all museum curators and archivists are especially knowledgeable in every subject, and insignia is not everyone’s interest in the way it is for us.
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 11:42 AM.
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  #48  
Old 06-07-19, 11:42 AM
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Thats good to see i didn't realise the Quartermaster wore the frock coat.
Andy
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  #49  
Old 06-07-19, 11:48 AM
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Dress regulations isn't very clear, coat for the Quartermaster i quote " scarlet, blue collar and cuff, embroiled device only of the Regiment on the collar. Epaulettes the same as for Subalterns Officers. "
Andy
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  #50  
Old 06-07-19, 11:50 AM
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Thats good to see i didn't realise the Quartermaster wore the frock coat.
Andy
ALL officers Andy.
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 11:56 AM.
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  #51  
Old 06-07-19, 11:56 AM
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Do you reckon the Quartermaster is amongst those ? Is this a photo you have ? Can you zoom in ?
Andy
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  #52  
Old 06-07-19, 12:00 PM
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Do you reckon the Quartermaster is amongst those ? Is this a photo you have ? Can you zoom in ?
Andy
Yes I think the QM is in the photo, no I cannot zoom in. The photos are from your museum. There was nothing ‘different’ to ID Victorian era Guards quartermasters dress unless in full dress, apart from their age and any medal ribbons, and many passed over officers of field rank would have looked similar in both regards anyway.
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  #53  
Old 06-07-19, 12:08 PM
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Yes I think the QM is in the photo, no I cannot zoom in. The photos are from your museum. There was nothing Ďdifferentí to ID Victorian era Guards quartermasters dress unless in full dress, apart from their age and any medal ribbons, and many passed over officers of field rank would have looked similar in both regards anyway.
The photos are from the Guards Museum ????? Ive asked to see stuff like this but was told there wasn't anything else to see FFS. Unbelievable i only served in the Regiment FFS. Who did you see ?
Andy
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  #54  
Old 06-07-19, 12:23 PM
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The photos are from the Guards Museum ????? Ive asked to see stuff like this but was told there wasn't anything else to see FFS. Unbelievable i only served in the Regiment FFS. Who did you see ?
Andy
This is a classic example of what I was saying about curators and archivists. I didn’t see anyone, some or all of the regiments (GG) photographic archive has been published online in small sizes so that the regiment can make money from members of the public, who can order photos as prints, framed pictures and various other objects.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 12:31 PM.
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  #55  
Old 06-07-19, 12:26 PM
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Dress regulations isn't very clear, coat for the Quartermaster i quote " scarlet, blue collar and cuff, embroiled device only of the Regiment on the collar. Epaulettes the same as for Subalterns Officers. "
Andy
That is full dress, and describes what the Scots Guards QM 1860 is wearing. Full dress requirements didnít change that much after the 1855 pattern was brought in.
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  #56  
Old 06-07-19, 12:37 PM
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ALL officers Andy.
Ill go and see if i can look closer at the original, to see if the badges are the same, all bar one ?
Andy
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  #57  
Old 06-07-19, 01:05 PM
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Ill go and see if i can look closer at the original, to see if the badges are the same, all bar one ?
Andy
So it would seem if the received wisdom is correct, although Iíll vouchsafe that it does seem odd for just one regiment to do it. Iíve posited an alternative explanation in my earlier post mentioning Christ.
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  #58  
Old 06-07-19, 04:13 PM
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Toby, i don't know what to say. The Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards Officers wore metallic cap badges in the Victorian era. The Grenadier Guards officers did on the foreign service helmet at that time. The grenade and the garter surmounted by the crown the later up until about 1934. The badge Simon is selling ( which is nice ) is not mentioned in Dress Regulations for the Army - Foot Guards 1934 ? Even though it mentions the Forage Cap ( Officers ) and gold embroided grenade being worn on it. It does also mention the Cocked Hat for quartermasters, i would have thought if the Quartermaster did wear a metallic grenade it would have said ? Every other cap badge ( grenade type ) is mentioned in dress regs or has a sealed pattern fact.
However these gilt grenades are about, fact and thats to Mike they looked well made too. But now we have the gilt grenade with a white metal cypher and a gilt grenade with a gilt cypher both to the King George V era fact, why ????? We have K & K saying one thing and then the image you have shown with the 5 grenades on it saying another ????? I'm not to clever, but i'll admit i'm confused.
Andy
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  #59  
Old 06-07-19, 05:22 PM
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Toby, i don't know what to say. The Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards Officers wore metallic cap badges in the Victorian era. The Grenadier Guards officers did on the foreign service helmet at that time. The grenade and the garter surmounted by the crown the later up until about 1934. The badge Simon is selling ( which is nice ) is not mentioned in Dress Regulations for the Army - Foot Guards 1934 ? Even though it mentions the Forage Cap ( Officers ) and gold embroided grenade being worn on it. It does also mention the Cocked Hat for quartermasters, i would have thought if the Quartermaster did wear a metallic grenade it would have said ? Every other cap badge ( grenade type ) is mentioned in dress regs or has a sealed pattern fact.
However these gilt grenades are about, fact and thats to Mike they looked well made too. But now we have the gilt grenade with a white metal cypher and a gilt grenade with a gilt cypher both to the King George V era fact, why ????? We have K & K saying one thing and then the image you have shown with the 5 grenades on it saying another ????? I'm not to clever, but i'll admit i'm confused.
Andy
I agree that it’s confusing and I don’t know the answer with any certainty, any more than you do. As you rightly point out, the existence of such fine quality badges is a matter of undisputed fact that cannot be simply explained away and that is the crux of the issue. With that in mind, the evidence that Kipling and King found that the main badge to which you refer was that of a commissioned quartermaster is the best information that we have. Until it's properly researched by someone with some Guards knowledge going through the available records and photographic archives there’s not much more that can be said with any profit. Unfortunately the absence of any mention in dress regulations is not by itself significant, in that there have been numerous cases where what actually happened in regiments was not as per the regulations, e.g. the Black Watch choice of a plain Sphinx as it’s feather bonnet badge, or the bullion wire badge worn by RWF officers on the glengarry, both in contradiction of the regulations.

Last edited by Toby Purcell; 06-07-19 at 05:31 PM.
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  #60  
Old 06-07-19, 06:33 PM
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I agree that itís confusing and I donít know the answer with any certainty, any more than you do. As you rightly point out, the existence of such fine quality badges is a matter of undisputed fact that cannot be simply explained away and that is the crux of the issue. With that in mind, the evidence that Kipling and King found that the main badge to which you refer was that of a commissioned quartermaster is the best information that we have. Until it's properly researched by someone with some Guards knowledge going through the available records and photographic archives thereís not much more that can be said with any profit. Unfortunately the absence of any mention in dress regulations is not by itself significant, in that there have been numerous cases where what actually happened in regiments was not as per the regulations, e.g. the Black Watch choice of a plain Sphinx as itís feather bonnet badge, or the bullion wire badge worn by RWF officers on the glengarry, both in contradiction of the regulations.
I take your point Toby.
Andy
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