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  #16  
Old 03-07-19, 07:44 PM
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Toby Purcell Toby Purcell is offline
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Originally Posted by manchesters View Post
Toby,

Thank you for your valuable incite into this matter. Respected and knowledgeable poster that you always are.

regards
Thank you for the sentiment, Simon, which I know is entirely well meant. But just to be clear, I am not taking sides in this debate. If my earlier comments from a different thread had not been mentioned I would not have posted.
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  #17  
Old 03-07-19, 07:47 PM
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Toby,

I understand completely, its just that your knowledge adds to the debate.

regards
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  #18  
Old 03-07-19, 09:53 PM
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Toby i respect you for your knowledge and mean no disrespect what soever, and too Simon.
Couldn't the commissioned Quartermaster not have worn the bronze grenade, or even the bullion one ?
Also these gilt grenade's could have been worn by the Regimental Sergeant Major ?
But i believe until evidence is found we should say " possibly " worn by the quartermaster commissioned.
Andy
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  #19  
Old 04-07-19, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by grenadierguardsman View Post
Toby i respect you for your knowledge and mean no disrespect what soever, and too Simon.
Couldn't the commissioned Quartermaster not have worn the bronze grenade, or even the bullion one ?
Also these gilt grenade's could have been worn by the Regimental Sergeant Major ?
But i believe until evidence is found we should say " possibly " worn by the quartermaster commissioned.
Andy
Anything is possible without the concrete evidence that we are missing, Andy, but by considering previous practice and certain fairly inviolate principles we can apply some intelligent likelihood’s. The badge seems to have been in existence a relatively short time, and bears only a Victorian cypher, as I have not seen one for Edward VII yet? We also have to consider the size and style of the badge and what headdress that suggests.

We know that the officers and sergeants of battalion staff grade wore the peaked round forage cap between 1881 and 1900, on which bullion or precious metal and enamel badges on a black band (less Scots) were worn by officers, but seemingly superior metals above a gold lace (bias and stand pattern) band by the battalion sergeant major and battalion staff SNCOs. It was not normal for the sergeant major alone to wear a superior badge, and traditionally all those dressed in ‘First Class’ uniform wore the same style of badge. I feel that this consistent tradition rules the sergeant major out as a potential wearer.

Conversely, there was only one quartermaster with no group of fellows, who held only honorary (rather than substantive) rank, and who we know was not afforded the same privileges at that time as the rest of the officers. He was not even a ‘dining member’ unless specifically invited by the PMC. It has been lamented in the past that he was ‘neither fish, nor fowl’ because of his unique position between the most senior other ranks and the officers with full commissions. This scenario makes him a strong contender for the badge, as he would without question have worn the officers pattern cap with its distinctive ribbed black band (as opposed to the gold lace band of SM and SNCO Staff), and perhaps wore the superior metal badge as a mark of his unique and solitary status. A kind of compromise, halfway house, as it were.

Bronze badges did not come into existence until 1904, when they were specifically decreed for the new, serge service dress (SD) that had been introduced in 1902. For some reason the Foot Guards opted not to wear them and to instead wear their coloured forage caps and associated badges.

A follow on question must be what did the Coldstream and Scots Guards quartermasters wear, and if different why?
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 04-07-19 at 01:46 PM.
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  #20  
Old 04-07-19, 07:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
Anything is possible without the concrete evidence that we are missing, Andy, but by considering previous practice and certain fairly inviolate principles we can apply some intelligent likelihood’s. The badge seems to have been in existence a relatively short time, and bears only a Victorian cypher, as I have not seen one for Edward VII yet? We also have to consider the size and style of the badge and what headdress that suggests.

We know that the officers and sergeants of battalion staff grade wore the peaked round forage cap between 1881 and 1900, on which bullion or precious metal and enamel badges on a black band (less Scots) were worn by officers, but seemingly superior metals above a gold lace (bias and stand pattern) band by the battalion sergeant major and battalion staff SNCOs. It was not normal for the sergeant major alone to wear a superior badge, and traditionally all those dressed in ‘First Class’ uniform wore the same style of badge. I feel that this consistent tradition rules the sergeant major out as a potential wearer.

Conversely, there was only one quartermaster with no group of fellows, who held only honorary (rather than substantive) rank, and who we know was not afforded the same privileges at that time as the rest of the officers. He was not even a ‘dining member’ unless specifically invited by the PMC. It has been lamented in the past that he was ‘neither fish, nor fowl’ because of his unique position between the most senior other ranks and the officers with full commissions. This scenario makes him a strong contender for the badge, as he would without question have worn the officers pattern cap with its distinctive ribbed black band (as opposed to the gold lace band of SM and SNCO Staff), and perhaps wore the superior metal badge as a mark of his unique and solitary status. A kind of compromise, halfway house, as it were.

Bronze badges did not come into existence until 1904, when they were specifically decreed for the new, serge service dress (SD) that had been introduced in 1902. For some reason the Foot Guards opted not to wear them and to instead wear their coloured forage caps and associated badges.

A follow on question must be what did the Coldstream and Scots Guards quartermasters wear, and if different why?
Yes i was going to mention the Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards come to think of that the Irish Guards and Welsh Guards also.
Andy
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  #21  
Old 04-07-19, 09:07 PM
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Yes i was going to mention the Coldstream Guards and Scots Guards come to think of that the Irish Guards and Welsh Guards also.
Andy
I’m not sure it applies to the Irish and Welsh Guards, Andy, you must bear in mind that the former were not formed until 1900 and the latter 1915. Have you seen the badge with any cypher other than Queen Victoria’s?
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  #22  
Old 04-07-19, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
I’m not sure it applies to the Irish and Welsh Guards, Andy, you must bear in mind that the former were not formed until 1900 and the latter 1915. Have you seen the badge with any cypher other than Queen Victoria’s?
Sorry Toby what badge ?
Andy
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  #23  
Old 04-07-19, 10:54 PM
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Sorry Toby what badge ?
Andy
Ummmm...the badge that is the subject of this thread?
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  #24  
Old 04-07-19, 10:56 PM
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A gilt grenade with Queens Victoria's cypher, i believe i have. Andy Plewa may have had one ?
Andy
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  #25  
Old 04-07-19, 11:01 PM
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Toby who do you think wore the grenade with the Queen Victoria cypher, but no crown ?
Andy
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  #26  
Old 04-07-19, 11:35 PM
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Sorry Toby what badge ?
Andy
I’m talking about the badge referred to by Kipling&King as commissioned quartermaster and I thought that was what you were talking about? The one you started this thread about?
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  #27  
Old 05-07-19, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Toby Purcell View Post
I’m talking about the badge referred to by Kipling&King as commissioned quartermaster and I thought that was what you were talking about? The one you started this thread about?
Yes i know i was just asking you who wore this badge, the one with out the crown?
Andy
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  #28  
Old 05-07-19, 06:10 PM
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With apologies for the quality of images - before changing specialism to Commandos etc 30 years ago, I spent the previous 20 years putting together a collection of cap badges. These are part of that cap badge collection, I hope they are the ones being discussed and help one way or another. Apologies if not.
Mike
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  #29  
Old 05-07-19, 06:43 PM
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I have these on another board - hoping they help and that I have not gone off at a tangent ...
Any thoughts on these badges would be welcome.
Mike
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  #30  
Old 05-07-19, 07:28 PM
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very nice too, any chance of seeing the backs please. Ive not seen the large before ?
Andy
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