ww1 officers bronze cap badge

[badgecollector]

hi all
this badge arrived today and looks to be a ww1 officers bronze cap badge with cut down blades.
it measures 26mm high so collar size but the blades Im assuming makes it an officers cap badge
cheers
bc

[Lancer 17]

G'day BC, again

That looks like a hodge podge, the front looks ok but the back looks pretty horrible and the blades look to have been added as an after thought. On top of that it has the voids normally seen on a hat badge but not on a collar.

I really cant add any further comments as Ive never seen a Rising Sun like it.

Lets hope some one else can enlighten us !

Regards

Phil.

[badgecollector]

hi phil
thanks for your comments.
it has the look of a J.R.Gaunt made badge from the front and the voids to me would indicate a cap badge rather than a collar.
the back I agree is a little yuck but I have several British osd badges that look similar. showed a few British collectors who think the back looks ok for a British osd badge?
who knows
bc

[lettman]

A Middle Eastern bazaar cast?

[Frank Kelley]

A normal and very nice officers cap badge, don't you like it?

Originally Posted by badgecollector

hi all
this badge arrived today and looks to be a ww1 officers bronze cap badge with cut down blades.
it measures 26mm high so collar size but the blades Im assuming makes it an officers cap badge
cheers
bc

[badgecollector]

thanks frank
yeah I like it.
bc

[Frank Kelley]

You certainly do see very many OSD cap and collar badges like it, don't be put off by the colour on the reverse, it can be anything from maroon down to a sandstone pink, the obverse is a really nice colour and quite the norm in the Great War.

[badgecollector]

thanks frank
totally agree
bc

[lettman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

You certainly do see very many OSD cap and collar badges like it, don't be put off by the colour on the reverse, it can be anything from maroon down to a sandstone pink, the obverse is a really nice colour and quite the norm in the Great War.

I'm going to put my neck on the block and say that officer's OSD badges are not 'standard' for Rising Sun badges. I'm not ruling out the possibility that officers got them made up privately, but I'm not aware of there being a convention that officers wore badges of a different manufacture from ORs, as in the British Army. I'm happy to be informed otherwise, though.

[badgecollector]

Originally Posted by lettman

I'm going to put my neck on the block and say that officer's OSD badges are not 'standard' for Rising Sun badges. I'm not ruling out the possibility that officers got them made up privately, but I'm not aware of there being a convention that officers wore badges of a different manufacture from ORs, as in the British Army. I'm happy to be informed otherwise, though.

hi
your correct. they are not standard however,
how do you account for the hallmarked sterling silver and gilt hat/cap and collar badges produced by English manufacturers for officers in ww1? Australian flying corps officers, nurses and general staff also had straight hallmarked silver shoulder titles.
there were anomalies to the British manufactured badges for aussie troops in ww1. cossum shows on pg 5 of his rising suns book a hat badge made by Gaunt in sterling silver. he says there were also collars issued and they were also produced in brass, bronze and white metal. cossum refers to this badge as circa 1904 however I have seen hallmarked dates from 1904 through to about 1920. I think I have a 1916 hallmark on a silver rising sun cap badge (but will check this when im back home)
bc

[Frank Kelley]

LOL really?
So you are saying that dress regulations did not apply to Australian officers, I should have thought the reverse was true!

Originally Posted by lettman

I'm going to put my neck on the block and say that officer's OSD badges are not 'standard' for Rising Sun badges. I'm not ruling out the possibility that officers got them made up privately, but I'm not aware of there being a convention that officers wore badges of a different manufacture from ORs, as in the British Army. I'm happy to be informed otherwise, though.

[lettman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

LOL really?
So you are saying that dress regulations did not apply to Australian officers, I should have thought the reverse was true!

Silver for nurses etc, aside, all I'm saying is that I have handled dozens and dozens of Australian OSD uniforms over the years, WW1 and WW2, and I own a number of examples myself. I have never seen any badge on them that would qualify as the same type of thing as dedicated officers' 'bronze' badges -- i.e. flat backs with blades -- that you find in the British and Canadian forces. Lol all you like, but I know what I know, from 40 years' experience.

[Frank Kelley]

If officers badges were not worn why were they made, the orders had to be paid for, indeed, an officer had to buy everything he wore and why are they so common?

Originally Posted by lettman

Silver for nurses etc, aside, all I'm saying is that I have handled dozens and dozens of Australian OSD uniforms over the years, WW1 and WW2, and I own a number of examples myself. I have never seen any badge on them that would qualify as the same type of thing as dedicated officers' 'bronze' badges -- i.e. flat backs with blades -- that you find in the British and Canadian forces. Lol all you like, but I know what I know, from 40 years' experience.

[fairlie63]

I don't think Lettman is saying these badges were not worn, what he is saying is that the Australian Army did not have the OSD badges that were common to the British and other Commonwealth forces. In fact the only authorised bz OSD badge I am aware of is the Aust Staff Corps badge introduced in 1935. Happy to stand corrected on that.

AIF officers no doubt had badges to their own specification of material or finish made up by suppliers in UK, the dies would have been in existence because Gaunt had already supplied Australia with the 'rising sun' pattern.

However the official badge authorised and supplied for both officers and ORs was the copper oxidised Commonwealth pattern badge, large for the hat. I'm not certain the attachments will attach but shown should be an extract from Orders for AIF 1915 for articles to be issued to officers, and AIF Order 1098 of 5 Feb 1918 which states Badge, Commonwealth, copper oxidised. Officers of the AIF were not authorised or issued a different pattern badge than ORs and that is the statement Lettman is making.

[fairlie63]

Sorry, 1915 is a couple of hundred kb too large, I've got no idea how to reduce it. AIFO 1098 is attached.

Keith