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  #31  
Old 08-02-19, 08:27 AM
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Frank Kelley Frank Kelley is offline
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Badgeman has "been put inside"

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Originally Posted by magpie View Post
ALex, I've seen twice in the past 2 weeks that badgeman has been put inside, so perhaps people are beginning to do something.
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  #32  
Old 08-02-19, 10:42 AM
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Cool Re-enactment items

Without getting into the "rights or wrongs" of badges and other items for re-enacting, I think the company name and date of manufacture on the reverse could be helpful and in such a way it could not be easily removed by rogue sellers.

Rob
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  #33  
Old 08-02-19, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Neibelungen View Post

Any skilled metalworker/jeweller could reproduce off an original in such a way that it can be nearly impossible to tell the difference between a genuine and a reproduction. Even shrinkage from casting can be eliminated entirely with a little effort and skill.
These days you can digitally scan, 3d print and enlarge with remarkable resolution. You could then create copper electrodes and spark erode a die with near 100% accuracy and die stamp a practically indistinguishable badge.
Sorry if this question is a bit off topic to the thread.

I recall reading your posts on electro forming and lancer plates with great interest and more than a little trepidation for the future of the hobby given modern metalwork technology. But just in regards to recreation of dies using the above technique. Are you aware if anyone has done this? Obviously the process must cost money, is it expensive or something that could be done quite cheaply?

I ask as in the last year or two I’ve noticed what feels to be slightly more than usual QVC/Edwardian badges that appear very fresh/clean including several I’d say look ‘brand spanking new’. Yet they appear to be from correct dies and have all the accepted good characteristics i.e. braze holes, yellow braze, toned loops etc.

Of course the volume could just be coincidence and their appearance due to how they’ve been kept along with the higher quality metals used by the Victorians/Edwardians retaining their lustre.

However this Edwardian Suffolk Regiment badge really does look like it was made yesterday but ticks all the boxes? Perhaps I’m just being paranoid...

Thanks,

Luke
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Last edited by Luke H; 08-02-19 at 11:19 AM.
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  #34  
Old 08-02-19, 12:43 PM
Lancer 17 Lancer 17 is offline
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Thumbs down

I first became aware of Neibelungens work of reproducing ancient military badges during the lengthy discussion in regard to a dubious 17th Lancers pre Crimea lance cap plate which was to change hands for a large amount of money 2 or 3 or more years ago that I was involved in. Now the same persons work has hit the head lines again, admittedly hes put his own hand up to this one.

I for one are not happy about these reproductions, be they be for film or television, in the case of the lance cap plate they were almost impossible to determine if it was a fake or not.

I believe that this type of reproducing rare and valuable badges / helmet plates does our hobby no good what so ever.

Regards

Phil.
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  #35  
Old 08-02-19, 12:55 PM
Neibelungen Neibelungen is offline
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Quote:
But just in regards to recreation of dies using the above technique. Are you aware if anyone has done this? Obviously the process must cost money, is it expensive or something that could be done quite cheaply?
It's an extremely common method used in industrial manufacture of tooling dies these days. Known as EDM spark errosion all you require is a graphite or copper model which is plunged down into a block of hardened metal. It creates hundreds of tiny sparks as the two surfaces almost come into contact erroding out a cavity that conforms to the shape being plunged.
Male punches can be produced the same way

A used Charmilles machine can be picked up from around £2-5K (about the same price as a good lathe) and for a button your looking about £200 to produce a die. It's major advantage is you can work directly into hardened steel as the process doesn't care how tough the material is physically.
You can combine it with conventianal machining to remove the bulk material and then just add in the refined details.

With the badge example, I'd suspect it's gone through a very thorough cleaning process, either pickling to remove oxides or some sort of electropolishing to brighten the surface.

A lot of indian made fake badges were originally done using bronze dies cast from an original, hence tending to be shallow and nowhere as crisp as it originals.
But now you can subcontract out tooling manufacture globally and China and even India are some of the leaders in outsourcing this type of work. A two part steel die can be delivered for about £200-£500 easily.

After that you only need a hydraulic press or even a large fly press depending on size to produce stampings.
Sheet metal is actually far better quality and available in almost any specification these days. So it's only a case of matching a sample to a supplier to get something close. XRF spectroscopy and such can give you the precise composition on the metal and is relatively cheap.
Like most things, the internet has allowed access to almost any tool and material globally and the market for secondhand machinery isn't the closed, specialised world it used to be, particularly from Asia.

Add to that the big down-turn in trade and you have a lot of factories with idle production facilities and the skills and tooling to produce these, which are often outsourced to them in the first instance.
[IMG]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_discharge_machining#/media/File:EDMWorkpiece.jpg
[/IMG]
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  #36  
Old 08-02-19, 01:36 PM
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Absolutely fascinating. Many thanks for the thorough explanation and good news about that Suffolk’s.

From the pricing, excluding someone doing a full start up business/manufacturing process, it sounds as if an unscrupulous seller wanting such dies made from original badges to produce ‘almost’ indistinguishable fakes would in theory make their money back on said die quite quickly even on a badge worth perhaps just £20. Sobering thought and prospect.

Finally re the outsourcing work to India and Asia, would the workmanship and quality of these dies be as high or lower as was historically?

Thanks,

Luke

Last edited by Luke H; 08-02-19 at 01:47 PM.
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  #37  
Old 08-02-19, 01:39 PM
Alex Rice Alex Rice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
ALex, I've seen twice in the past 2 weeks that badgeman has been put inside, so perhaps people are beginning to do something.
That's a good start, that guy is a blight on the collecting fraternity!
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  #38  
Old 08-02-19, 02:19 PM
Neibelungen Neibelungen is offline
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Quote:
Finally re the outsourcing work to India and Asia, would the workmanship and quality of these dies be as high or lower as was historically?
Think it really depends on what you are prepared to pay.
The technology and skills are still exactly the same, just more automated.

Often earlier dies will be better, simply because the speed of production was slower, so a poor striking might be redone. Also your impact method in a drop press is different to the slow squeeze of a hydraulic press so you can get deeper strikes. If you compare edwardian striking to earlier victorian the are generally shallower.

A badge out of Asia is around the $1-2 mark.. say £1.50 to £2.00 and less if you ordered a 1,000 or more. You can be be down to 75p. Doesn't take much to recoup your expenses if you can reach a global market these days.
It's likely that your postage costs will be almost as significant as your badge costs.
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  #39  
Old 08-02-19, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
ALex, I've seen twice in the past 2 weeks that badgeman has been put inside, so perhaps people are beginning to do something.
I think this is big news for us.

Please can you point us to some press details or links so we can see what its all about please?

regards
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  #40  
Old 08-02-19, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neibelungen View Post
Think it really depends on what you are prepared to pay.
The technology and skills are still exactly the same, just more automated.

Often earlier dies will be better, simply because the speed of production was slower, so a poor striking might be redone. Also your impact method in a drop press is different to the slow squeeze of a hydraulic press so you can get deeper strikes. If you compare edwardian striking to earlier victorian the are generally shallower.

A badge out of Asia is around the $1-2 mark.. say £1.50 to £2.00 and less if you ordered a 1,000 or more. You can be be down to 75p. Doesn't take much to recoup your expenses if you can reach a global market these days.
It's likely that your postage costs will be almost as significant as your badge costs.
Thanks button.

Quote:
Originally Posted by magpie View Post
ALex, I've seen twice in the past 2 weeks that badgeman has been put inside, so perhaps people are beginning to do something.
Good news!
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  #41  
Old 08-02-19, 05:21 PM
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Sorry but I have no info, it was on a FB page, I think it was to do with his silverware, perhaps someone who lives near to him would have local press details if they bothered to print them.
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  #42  
Old 08-02-19, 05:32 PM
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Badgeman? The grassy knoll?
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  #43  
Old 08-02-19, 05:38 PM
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Default Recognising an ally

My word, this has turned out to be a fascinating thread ! And, while I agree in principle with many who berate the manufacture of historic badge reproductions which are passed off as the genuine article as undermining the integrity of the hobby, one cannot escape the fact that they are well established now and continue to be so.

Surely, as with other specialist activities, part of our expertise must include the ability to be aware and distinguish between genuine and fake artefacts, and this can only come from hard-earned experience and expert guidance. In this latter field I feel that Mr Neibelungen has contributed greatly to our understanding of the various techniques and methods used to produce such items in a number of past threads on this forum for which I, for one, am exceedingly grateful. His honesty and integrity in these matters deserves to be appreciated and not subjected to insults and innuendo. It would be unfortunate indeed if we were to discourage this gentleman from contributing to this forum which I believe he has contributed greatly. Regards. Jeff
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  #44  
Old 08-02-19, 07:31 PM
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On top of that one has to take 'scrapped' dies into consideration.
A while ago a Chinese manufacturer was offering 19th century French police buttons. They were from a one policeman village.

I assume the Chinese sift through the scrap they buy in Europe and resell items to interested parties.
Tens of thousands of French dies were scrapped in 2008.

Thank you Neibelungen for your contributions to this forum.
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  #45  
Old 08-02-19, 08:19 PM
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Sonofacqms Sonofacqms is offline
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Cool Collecting problems

As with all collecting, knowledge is the king, when I buy a collection of badges I do not split them up, as to whether you would make more money by doing this is irrelevant, to me, with superb fakes only the history is missing.

Rob
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